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Francis Icaza
Francis Icaza
Statele Unite
Local time: 23:45
din engleză în spaniolă
+ ...
Just a bit more of the camel's nose Aug 2, 2002

There is no problem with matters as they are. The idea of changing things to suit a minuscule number of whiners and malcontents will only mean that those whiners and malcontents need only stamp their little feet, spit their little venom and, like a spoilt brat, get their way. What will they come up with next? A special day for happy thoughts? Another day for total silence? The rest of the days set aside for complaining and whining?



Little by little and before you know i
... See more
There is no problem with matters as they are. The idea of changing things to suit a minuscule number of whiners and malcontents will only mean that those whiners and malcontents need only stamp their little feet, spit their little venom and, like a spoilt brat, get their way. What will they come up with next? A special day for happy thoughts? Another day for total silence? The rest of the days set aside for complaining and whining?



Little by little and before you know it, the camel will be comfortably inside the tent and the traveller will be shivering in the cold. It always starts like this. Open the door to censorship and you had best be ready to abandon your creation, because opening that door means it has been taken from you with nary a whimper.



BoBL

F



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Dyran Altenburg (X)
Dyran Altenburg (X)  Identity Verified
Statele Unite
Local time: 23:45
din engleză în spaniolă
+ ...
To each its own Aug 5, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-08-02 02:46, astrolabio wrote:

It always starts like this. Open the door to censorship and you had best be ready to abandon your creation, because opening that door means it has been taken from you with nary a whimper.



I\'m afraid you\'ve got it all wrong.



It\'s not about censorship, it\'s about diversity. Those of us who prefer that job related subjects have a separa... See more
Quote:


On 2002-08-02 02:46, astrolabio wrote:

It always starts like this. Open the door to censorship and you had best be ready to abandon your creation, because opening that door means it has been taken from you with nary a whimper.



I\'m afraid you\'ve got it all wrong.



It\'s not about censorship, it\'s about diversity. Those of us who prefer that job related subjects have a separate sub-forum have no problem with the fact that the vast majority of Spanish-speaking users will continue to use the main forum for more personal exchanges.



Besides, it was Henry\'s idea to begin with.







PD: A los moderadores,

¿Se ha determinado ya alguna fecha para abrir el subforo? ▲ Collapse


 
Patricia Posadas
Patricia Posadas  Identity Verified
Spania
Local time: 04:45
din engleză în spaniolă
+ ...
Ordenar los temas sí Aug 6, 2002

Al parecer algo hace falta porque no había visto este tema hasta ahora ...



Es cierto que resulta complejo guiarse dentro de la multitud de temas que se abren en el foro español gracias a su abundancia que me parece muy positiva.



Cualquier opción que permita ordenar un poco los temas probablemente me parecerá bien



Una opinión: creo que si los off-topic se alejan de los work-related
... See more
Al parecer algo hace falta porque no había visto este tema hasta ahora ...



Es cierto que resulta complejo guiarse dentro de la multitud de temas que se abren en el foro español gracias a su abundancia que me parece muy positiva.



Cualquier opción que permita ordenar un poco los temas probablemente me parecerá bien



Una opinión: creo que si los off-topic se alejan de los work-related los primeros perderán lectores ... y esto será un gran daño moral para estas personas, aunque tal vez no lo sepan aún.



Al principio yo no los leía, ni entendía por qué se pasaban los compañeros tanto tiempo discutiendo sobre off-topics, pero caí en la red y me alegro Sin embargo nunca me molestó que estuvieran ahí.



PS: hasta hoy no había visto este tema
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Aurora Humarán (X)
Aurora Humarán (X)  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 00:45
din engleză în spaniolă
+ ...
Work-related / off-topic / zonas grises Aug 6, 2002






A medida que el tema este del foro español dividido en dos fue avanzando cambié algunos grados mi punto de vista.



Desde ayer me están dando vueltas en la cabeza las palabras de Francis.



Como soy una de las personas que más pone y pone postings en este foro estuve analizando de qué se compone la mayoría para ver cómo se etiquetan. Algunas conclusiones:



1) Ayer puse un posting con una poesía de Mario B
... See more





A medida que el tema este del foro español dividido en dos fue avanzando cambié algunos grados mi punto de vista.



Desde ayer me están dando vueltas en la cabeza las palabras de Francis.



Como soy una de las personas que más pone y pone postings en este foro estuve analizando de qué se compone la mayoría para ver cómo se etiquetan. Algunas conclusiones:



1) Ayer puse un posting con una poesía de Mario Benedetti con cero intención de tocar el tema de la mujer etc, sin embargo el thread fue tomando otro rumbo. (Y en mi país ya tuvimos suficientes dictaduras para saber cómo es esto de “imponer” rumbos. Ojo, no malinterpretar, soy una persona muy respetuosa de los límites como la gran mayoría de mis colegas) A mí el poema me gustó por mostrar un punto de vista tan trasgresor que te “sacude”, te picanea.... solamente eso. Muchos postings empiezan con un planteo y toman otro rumbo.

2) Como ejemplo en un tema que yo misma bauticé como “muy off-topic” derivamos a hablar sobre la enseñanza del idioma inglés que es un tema sobre el que, calculo la mayoría de los traductores puede querer decir algo. O al menos los que son opinadores en el foro.

3) Acompañamiento musical de Bill, ¿es un off-topic? A mí modo de ver: no. Pero, intuyo que hay personas a las que les molesta no en sí los off-topic sino el modo en que se tratan los temas en general, ya sea incorporando bromas o con un toque “amistoso”.

4) Estuve haciendo cálculos. (¡¡¡sí!!!) y más del 90% de los postings que yo puse contienen poesías o cuentos cortos o mini cuentos o hiperbreves o trozos literarios (Cortázar, Amado Nervo, Benedetti, Borges, Anderson Imbert, Berti, Galeano, Leopoldo Marechal, Unamuno, Faroni, Neruda y otros) Una poesía no es work-related, obviamente. Pero...es off-topic? O es tangencial a nuestra actividad?

5) En algunas oportunidades presenté temas definitivamente relacionados con nuestra actividad pero...con mi estilo que incorpora chistes y buena onda. Estoy pensando en algunos análisis sobre los intérpretes. Supongo que por el tratamiento de los temas, más informal y con un estilo un poco alejado de cánones ortodoxos, las personas que han “solicitado” este desglose, pueden volver a molestarse una vez que el desglose se haya hecho.

6) Puse varios postings extraídos del Manual de Autoayuda del Traductor. Son joda pura pero totalmente work-related.

7) Un glosario de cocina es claramente work-related. Ahí no hay duda. Pero a mí me preocupan las “zonas grises” . Y me preocupa, porque creo que esto puede desalentar a los que con mucha alegría disfrutamos compartiendo nuestros libros y nuestras palabras acá. ¿En qué sentido? En el sentido que menciona Francis Icaza más arriba.





Un señor iba viajando en tren solo y constantemente decía: “Ay, qué sed que tengo, ay qué sed que tengo”. Las demás personas comenzaron a fastidiarse, lógicamente. Y el hombre que seguía: “dios mío, qué sed que tengo”, “ay, tengo sed, qué sed que tengo”.



El tren se acercaba a una de las estaciones. Por la mente de más de uno pasó la misma idea: bajar y comprarle una botella de agua para calmarlo y para ¡¡¡que se callara!!!



Así se hizo....bajaron dos o tres personas (todo el tren estaba pendiente del tema) y volvieron corriendo con una botellita.



Al señor se le iluminó la cara. “¡Dios los bendiga! “, dijo “muchísimas gracias”.



Se tomó la botellita feliz y más felices estaban los otros compañeros. Hasta que de repente, el buen señor empezó: “Ay qué sed que tenía...! qué sed que tenía... Dios mío, qué sed que tenía....” etc.



Saludos a todos, Au







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Gabi
Gabi
Local time: 05:45
din germană în spaniolă
+ ...
Sí a Francis y Aurora Aug 6, 2002

Lo de \"ordenar\" va a ser interminable. Como las oficinas públicas a las que tanto les gusta ocuparse de ellas mismas y su organización y estructura y reorganización y reestructuración... hasta tendremos que poner un extra topic \"oficina de quejas\" ...



 
Francis Icaza
Francis Icaza
Statele Unite
Local time: 23:45
din engleză în spaniolă
+ ...
Is this on topic or off topic? Who decides and how? Aug 6, 2002

Dyran, thank you very much for your response. You write:

Quote:


It\'s not about censorship, it\'s about diversity.





When a few of the fine members here (many, like you, with excellent dispositions and another smaller group who seem to have been subject to overly-strict potty training) offer your views for this particular change, some of us disagree for the very reason the fine Aurora has ment... See more
Dyran, thank you very much for your response. You write:

Quote:


It\'s not about censorship, it\'s about diversity.





When a few of the fine members here (many, like you, with excellent dispositions and another smaller group who seem to have been subject to overly-strict potty training) offer your views for this particular change, some of us disagree for the very reason the fine Aurora has mentioned: (\"...puede desalentar a los que con mucha alegría disfrutamos compartiendo nuestros libros y nuestras palabras acá).



Why someone would risk such a thing over what seems to be a penchant for micro-managing, filing, compartmentalising, mini folders, sub-forums... is a mystery to me. I really cannot fathom how decanting fine wine through eyedroppers creates \"diversity\". But, I do enjoy the debate, I must say.



When I use the word censorship, I use it in it\'s purest form, not only for it\'s traditional meaning of suppression of expression. It is also the correct term for those times when one group tells the other when and/or where they will be allowed to express what they might. It is a complex matter sometimes, and because it is so, censorship is often imposed with less resistance than it deserves.



Quote:


Those of us who prefer that job related subjects have a separate sub-forum have no problem with the fact that the vast majority of Spanish-speaking users will continue to use the main forum for more personal exchanges.





I believe you are sincere, as always, and therefore I can\'t see why, since you have no problem with that fact, you desire this change in the first place. This seems to be a contradiction of sorts.



Quote:


Besides, it was Henry\'s idea to begin with.





And there is absolutely no one with more right to make changes to this site than its owner. It\'s a business, not a democracy and in business you do what best serves the ultimate goal of your company. It is no less censorship for all that.



We can split hairs over this for weeks and it won\'t make a bit of difference. It is a fait accompli. So let the moderators, webmasters and their minions go right ahead and make the changes, whip out their trusty eye droppers and show us the marvels of technology and its usefulness for forcing round pegs into square holes.



It is just that I find it curious that poetry and prose have this peculiar effect sometimes.



I wish you well,



Francis

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Dyran Altenburg (X)
Dyran Altenburg (X)  Identity Verified
Statele Unite
Local time: 23:45
din engleză în spaniolă
+ ...
Recuerden que esto es idea de Henry Aug 6, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-08-06 10:30, Gabi wrote:

Lo de \"ordenar\" va a ser interminable.




Funciona bastante bien en el resto de los foros. No hay razón para que no funcione en este también.


 
Aurora Humarán (X)
Aurora Humarán (X)  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 00:45
din engleză în spaniolă
+ ...
Las diferencias Aug 6, 2002

Postings de los foros:



Spanish: 5456

French: 1121

Italian: 1308

German: 671

Portuguese: 315

Russian: 1566

etc



Una persona como Henry que creó este increíble lugar...administrará las diferencias con \"recetas estandarizadas\"? Hum...I wonder.



Aurora

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-08-06 17:05 ]


 
Francis Icaza
Francis Icaza
Statele Unite
Local time: 23:45
din engleză în spaniolă
+ ...
Quite! Aug 6, 2002

Aurora has it right... too much.



Here\'s an alternative that\'s better than the \"If you don\'t want to read them, nobody\'s forcing you to\" system, methinks.



Let me, the poster, decide whether I\'m posting off-topic or not. If I make a mistake, the moderator can correct and edit my title and make it off-topic for me.



That way the moderators, who already review every word we write, can hold court over this issue as well. If I don\
... See more
Aurora has it right... too much.



Here\'s an alternative that\'s better than the \"If you don\'t want to read them, nobody\'s forcing you to\" system, methinks.



Let me, the poster, decide whether I\'m posting off-topic or not. If I make a mistake, the moderator can correct and edit my title and make it off-topic for me.



That way the moderators, who already review every word we write, can hold court over this issue as well. If I don\'t like poetry, prose, jokes and so on, then all I have to do is click on the titles that don\'t begin with \"OFF-TOPIC\". That way I can avoid culture and chit chats until such time as my mood improves or the wine hits the right spot.



No additional forums, no additional filing, categorising and jamming round pegs into, well, you know what I mean.



Yes Dyran, we all remember it was Henry\'s idea and we also remember he asked for our thoughts. We also remember the attacks from Magno, (leader of ye olde minuscule number of whiners and malcontents I mentioned) so: Who says good debate can\'t come from sad sources???



http://www.proz.com/index.php3?sp=bb/viewtopic&topic=4012&forum=24&start=0



I think I\'ve made a mistake by proposing this, now it will never happen!!!





Kind regards,



Francis







[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-08-06 20:15 ]
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Dyran Altenburg (X)
Dyran Altenburg (X)  Identity Verified
Statele Unite
Local time: 23:45
din engleză în spaniolă
+ ...
Splitting hairs Aug 6, 2002

Quote:


some of us disagree for the very reason the fine Aurora has mentioned: (\"...puede desalentar a los que con mucha alegría disfrutamos compartiendo nuestros libros y nuestras palabras acá).



Why? Do you really think that if given the choice, peope would rather read the boring, dull, 2-messages-a-day, plain vanilla forum instead of the rainbow one they enjoy so much? I seriously doubt it.


... See more
Quote:


some of us disagree for the very reason the fine Aurora has mentioned: (\"...puede desalentar a los que con mucha alegría disfrutamos compartiendo nuestros libros y nuestras palabras acá).



Why? Do you really think that if given the choice, peope would rather read the boring, dull, 2-messages-a-day, plain vanilla forum instead of the rainbow one they enjoy so much? I seriously doubt it.



The point that some people seem to be missing is that it takes just a few minutes for a profession-related message to be completely drowned (and a few days to be taken to a different page altogether), by poetry and prose.



Henry\'s idea would put those few messages out of the way, and maybe some of them could even be answered on time.



Quote:


I believe you are sincere, as always, and therefore I can\'t see why, since you have no problem with that fact, you desire this change in the first place. This seems to be a contradiction of sorts.



I endorse Henry\'s idea because to me, Proz is a work tool, nothing more, nothing less. As such, I would prefer not having to wade through a sea of enthusiastic personal exchanges to find work-related issues.



In other words, I respect the right of others to enjoy those exchanges. In the same way I would expect others to respect my choice of having all the messages I am interested on in one place (just as in the main forum).

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-08-07 11:10 ]Collapse


 
max (X)
max (X)
Local time: 20:45
din engleză în olandeză
+ ...
El monopolio de la verdad Aug 7, 2002

Veo que hasta ahora no ha habido consenso o me equivoco? Me gustaría compartir esta cita cuyas palabras expresan completamente mi sentir y el de varios de los participantes en este foro.



“Todos nos hallamos en una búsqueda... abstengámonos de moralizar o de pensar que tenemos el monopolio de la verdad”.


... See more
Veo que hasta ahora no ha habido consenso o me equivoco? Me gustaría compartir esta cita cuyas palabras expresan completamente mi sentir y el de varios de los participantes en este foro.



“Todos nos hallamos en una búsqueda... abstengámonos de moralizar o de pensar que tenemos el monopolio de la verdad”.



http://www.mileniosemanal.com/indice.asp?Seccion_id=12



Cristina
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