| Număr de pagini: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Allow site members/users to rate each job posting Inițiatorul discuției: Robert Forstag
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Robert Forstag 
Statele Unite
Local time: 00:03
din spaniolă în engleză
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INIŢIATORUL SUBIECTULUI | To Jeff--Jobs Board as spatula... | Oct 15, 2009 |
Point taken, and perhaps the site can encourage use of the directory to a greater extent.
At the same time, I think that your point may be somewhat overstated. There are after all various filters that can be applied that would weed out some some undesired responses from those apparently not qualified for a particular project. I would imagine that even more filters can be applied toward this end.
There is also the requirement of a sample translation that can be imposed,... See more Point taken, and perhaps the site can encourage use of the directory to a greater extent.
At the same time, I think that your point may be somewhat overstated. There are after all various filters that can be applied that would weed out some some undesired responses from those apparently not qualified for a particular project. I would imagine that even more filters can be applied toward this end.
There is also the requirement of a sample translation that can be imposed, and often a mere glance at this would suffice to disqualify.
I continue to think that it is problematic for the jobs board to be used mainly as a kind of spatula to allow outsourcers to scrape the bottom of the barrel. But if you are correct, then such an unsavory role is not only possible, but inevitable.
As for the idea of "premium jobs," that program seems to have died out a long time ago--even if it was a death that was unannounced by site staff.
[Edited at 2009-10-15 19:29 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | | | Hope to see it implemented soon | Oct 15, 2009 |
Robert's idea with Ralf's modifications sound like an excellent attempt at improving the current state of affairs. Hopefully we can see it implemented soon!
| | | | | I totally agree | Oct 15, 2009 |
Excellent idea! Thanks!
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Oana Popovici
Italia
Local time: 06:03
Membru (2008)
din engleză în română
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| 100% with you! | Oct 15, 2009 |
That's a great idea!
Just the other day there was a job posting of a company that "offered" high-volume work to proofreaders in one of my language pairs at ridiculously low rates. I don't even bother to quote on this kind of jobs, but I would really like to have the opportunity to express my opinion...
Let's hope this suggestion gets noticed!!!!!
| | | | jacana54 (X)
Uruguay
din engleză în spaniolă
+ ...
| Good suggestion, Robert | Oct 15, 2009 |
You have my support, for whatever it's worth
| | | | EirTranslations
Irlanda
Local time: 05:03
Membru (2005)
din engleză în spaniolă
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| couldn't say it better, great idea....fed up with the abuse | Oct 16, 2009 |
Hello Bob, I completely agree with your suggestion about being possible for us to leave feedback. This is vital and I also think that something should be done about rates and abusive job postings.
What I have found in my case, 90% of the time, you apply to a job post, state your rates etc and even when they are within the budget of the employer, they choose you but state that they cannot pay more than such and such amount when they had advertised different. At that point, (and I'm... See more Hello Bob, I completely agree with your suggestion about being possible for us to leave feedback. This is vital and I also think that something should be done about rates and abusive job postings.
What I have found in my case, 90% of the time, you apply to a job post, state your rates etc and even when they are within the budget of the employer, they choose you but state that they cannot pay more than such and such amount when they had advertised different. At that point, (and I'm sure we've all been there) its either late or maybe if we were really interested in a project missed out on other work (badly paid) just cause we were hoping to hear from this employer and we are right at the top of the quotes sent for a posting....and then the employer comes back to us and surprise!! All conditions changed, the pay is now mediocre or even worse than the jobs we turned down, payment well i have even had someone say more than 60 days and not even then they could assure when..., etc
What is happening? I think there should also be some sort of rules for job posts that completely forbid employers to act like this because it is a waste of our time and an abuse. If you post a job w certain conditions, keep to what u offered please!
I also work in Italian which sometimes gets better paid than Spanish-English, but still, how we can take an offer seriously that states payment of no more than 0.01 to 0.04 USD per source word? Have we become the scribes of ancient Egypt?
I agree that there has been a situation going on for a while and the crisis doesnt help, I am a single mother with a tiny baby, u can imagine...I have been translating for more than 14 years and had very good in-house positions and to have worked for such clients because there simply isnt nothing else or if you dont they will give that job to some newbie who has no clue about translating or even speaks 2 languages properly....hmm its quite frustrating...
Lets all do something about it and Bob, you have my support for this, feedback buttons are a great option and anything else that helps us get the recognition and payment we deserve.
Good evening to all, Bea ▲ Collapse
| | | | David Russi
Statele Unite
Local time: 22:03
din engleză în spaniolă
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| Commitment to translators, stance against outsourcer/agency abuse | Oct 16, 2009 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
I continue to think that it is problematic for the jobs board to be used mainly as a kind of spatula to allow outsourcers to scrape the bottom of the barrel. But if you are correct, then such an unsavory role is not only possible, but inevitable.
Something like this would show real commitment to translators, and be something of a stance against outsourcer/agency abuse on the part of ProZ, it would be interesting to see whether they are up to it.
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Abba Storgen (X)
Statele Unite
Local time: 23:03
din greacă în engleză
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| It will definitely fail | Oct 16, 2009 |
Let's assume that the agency "QWERTYG Translations" gets a high rating by translators and it is now "******".
You know what will happen next? About a thousand cheap translators will start sending emails to that agency, with resumes and promises of "lower rates".
Even if the agencies themselves organized such an effort, there's no such system that the translators themselves would not destroy in a matter of a few weeks.
Proof: Over the last 4 years, I've been... See more Let's assume that the agency "QWERTYG Translations" gets a high rating by translators and it is now "******".
You know what will happen next? About a thousand cheap translators will start sending emails to that agency, with resumes and promises of "lower rates".
Even if the agencies themselves organized such an effort, there's no such system that the translators themselves would not destroy in a matter of a few weeks.
Proof: Over the last 4 years, I've been receiving emails from translators of all language pairs, with resumes attached, who promise First and Foremost: Low Prices.
I didn't ask them, I never contacted them, I'm not an agency.
If the translators themselves assume such initiatives, on a voluntary basis, then what's the point?
In my language pair, I have actually seen a lot of cases where the agency offers XX.XX, and the translator replies "I'll do it for less" or gives a last minute discount without anyone asking for it!
The problem with the rates starts from the translators who accept them.
The agencies are just responding to the trend.
If I want a lawyer for only $100/hour, I could post an ad somewhere and wait. If nobody responds, I'll keep raising the price until someone responds.
In the translation market I don't need to wait that much...
PS. There is an agency which offers a Flat Rate of 0.10 per word. Flat. Period. The agency sends the projects to all translators in the database at the same time through an automated system. The first translator who logs in takes the job. I repeat, the rate is flat 0.10 per word.
If you lower your rate, you will not get more jobs, because the jobs are sent by the computerized system to all translators in the database.
Guess what happened: two Greek translators who already worked for the agency, offered, by themselves (nobody asked them) rates of 0.06 and 0.04.
Result: They are still getting the same emails by the system that everyone else receives, no difference in the work volume. The only difference is that their checks are lower...
Aristotle is turning in his grave...
[Edited at 2009-10-16 03:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
Statele Unite
Local time: 23:03
din greacă în engleză
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| Markets etc. | Oct 16, 2009 |
"I understand full well the principles of the free market and the global economy"
The mere fact that the Bank mortgages and money market interest rates are NOT that different between banks and banking institutions at a local level (we' re talking about Almost All Money and Capital in the Market), proves that there is no such thing as a "free market".
It is "free within certain limits" usually set by large central banks or large associations/lobbies/cartels. If yo... See more "I understand full well the principles of the free market and the global economy"
The mere fact that the Bank mortgages and money market interest rates are NOT that different between banks and banking institutions at a local level (we' re talking about Almost All Money and Capital in the Market), proves that there is no such thing as a "free market".
It is "free within certain limits" usually set by large central banks or large associations/lobbies/cartels. If you are a Bank, you can't give an interest of 10% on deposits in the U.S. (you will bankrupt your bank), and you can't charge 30% interest on loans (nobody will buy them). So, the Central Bank, as well as the market, do set limits.
On a global scale, prices of gasoline differ a lot. But on a local scale, not that much. There are limits set by the market itself and by people (associations, etc.), and other factors.
In the translation market, there are Upper Limits (what the end client can pay), but the Lower Limit is actually zero (voluntary translations, extremely low offers to "get the client", "desperation driven rates", etc.).
Translators *think* that they don't have that much to lose. In reality, the Opportunity Cost is HUGE. They don't meet people, they don't exercise other faculties/talents/training etc, they don't build their resumes (unless they start using ambiguities and general nonsense in their resumes that nobody takes seriously), they don't build capital, social networks, etc etc.
HUGE opportunity cost. We always knew about it, and the indemnification was the Rate Per Word. This is now diminishing as well.
Today's young generation is used to spend their days and nights in front of glowing monitors, so they don't mind that much. If you don't send them a file to translate, they will still spend the day on the computer, reading blogs. This is a low price factor as well ("what do I have to lose, if I would spend the day on the computer anyway?").
Translators are Masters in one thing though: getting used to situations that deteriorate. It's easier to get used to such things if you' re alone at home, because nobody else reacts around you. There's no support.
Farmers and employees go on strike. Translators just post stuff in forums. It's just more keystrokes. Big deal...
As a sidenote, nobody understands fully the principles of the free market (if they did, we would have no crisis ever). Most nobel-price winners in economics have a worse track record on evaluations and predictions than meteorologists.
There is a phrase: God invented economics in order to humble the economists.
PS. A final subnote: First you need to define the market in which you are. What kind of market it is. Then, pretend to be an outsourcer for a while. Or just be one for real. You get a lot more understanding this way.
Prices will keep falling. Last year I predicted a 40% decrease in prices, which already happened in the Overall Market (exceptions are many, but the volumes are low in that category). For next year I predict another 15-20% drop and it will keep falling until the unemployed stop translating and find other jobs that they had before.
Right now, in many language pairs, there's a noticeable new supply of translators (many more are coming from the unemployed), and this drives prices down, along with other factors (tight end-client budgets, tight agency budgets, low bidding sites such as proz, etc.).
[Edited at 2009-10-16 03:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alessandra Martelli (X)
Italia
Local time: 06:03
din engleză în italiană
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| To Eleftherios | Oct 16, 2009 |
Dear Eleftherios,
I understand your point of view and - yes - this might fail, BUT if we don't even try it will fail before it actually starts.
If you surf Proz.com you can easily see that there is almost a thread per day talking about low rates and "shameless" jobs posted on the website. This surely is a great traffic generator for the website itself, as such threads have a large number of followers.
If we look at the Proz.com mission statement, we will find the following:
Provide tools and opportunities that translators, translation companies, and others in the language industry use to:
* network,
* expand their businesses,
* improve their work,
* experience added enjoyment in their professional endeavors.
We surely network, but I'm not that sure our work is "improving" (maybe it is expanding, but I don't feel like the downgrading trend will help us "improve").
We are professional, not monkeys - at least we ought to be professionals, and professionals try to face stuations by being proactive.
We might fail, but we have the right - and obligation as well, IMHO - to try.
[Edited for typos - 6.30 am and no coffee yet, sorry]
[Edited at 2009-10-16 04:37 GMT]
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
Statele Unite
Local time: 23:03
din greacă în engleză
+ ...
| The blue board | Oct 16, 2009 |
But we already have the Blue Board - where most ratings are either "5" or "1" (very few are somewhere in the middle). Why do you think that translators will - all of a sudden - acquire proper rating skills if we give them another system?
At any rate, I can see it right now: the agency ABCDEFG gives a job to someone in Egypt for 4 cents per word, the translator thinks that this is a good deal (it probably is for Egypt) and then we have the following posts:
Translator:... See more But we already have the Blue Board - where most ratings are either "5" or "1" (very few are somewhere in the middle). Why do you think that translators will - all of a sudden - acquire proper rating skills if we give them another system?
At any rate, I can see it right now: the agency ABCDEFG gives a job to someone in Egypt for 4 cents per word, the translator thinks that this is a good deal (it probably is for Egypt) and then we have the following posts:
Translator:
"This agency is fantastic and the job came at a great price". (the price is good for Egypt)
Agency:
"We received this job at a low rate from the end client, but we managed to provide a great rate for Egypt".
In this case, the agency is actually right!
Let's not forget that not all end clients have high budget projects. Some clients say "I have something to translate but I don't have that much money, I'm a very small business". The market tells them: I'm sure you can find translators willing to take you project at a lower price, so that you can jump-start this product for your company in international markets.
This is actually good! It is good that there are cheap translators out there, because small companies can market their products without going into debt for the translations.
(the bad is when large companies with huge projects pay 40 cents per word to the agency - I'm not kidding - and the agency sends the job to the translator for 5 cents)
So, not all low price contracts are bad. Some are bad, and some are good.
Consider this scenario as well: Translator: "This agency is great because they gave me 2 cents per word and after two weeks of work I was finally able to buy a bicycle".
The posting will read only the first part "This agency is great" and everyone will start sending them emails with resumes.
The prices in each language pair are determined by the average "ambition"of the translators in that language pair and the cost of living in the areas where most of them live (except the paradox of Greece - a country more expensive than Germany which is treated like third world when it comes to translation prices - simply because they accept them).
For your combination Spanish --> English, I got bad news: too many translators living mostly in "cheap" countries or countries with very high unemployment (Spain), and not bad results from machine translations for "standardized" texts. Also, vast availability of translation memories and "cousins" who translate for $10/hour - then an editor takes over and presto!
I have an alternative idea: Just enhance the already existing Blue Board and keep enhancing it with new features until it satisfies most demands. Just add another option in the blue board "Indicate the price range of this agency" and give options "2-4 cents", "5-7 cents", etc etc.
Much easier and more effective. ▲ Collapse
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Franţa
Local time: 06:03
din franceză în germană
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| The point on which we all agree... | Oct 16, 2009 |
is that the information which we could give through this potential new feature should remain objective. There is no use (as it happens all the time, and sorry to say this) to accept a "low rate" and to complain afterwards that you were indeed badly paid :-S.
| | | | Milos Prudek
Cehia
Local time: 06:03
din engleză în cehă
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| Excellent idea | Oct 16, 2009 |
I fully support Robert Forstag's idea.
Eleftherios Kritikakis, you posted some great comments but you contradict yourself: you claim that translators will spoil even the most principled agencies with low rates, yet you describe an agency with automated system sending flat rate 0.10 EUR jobs. Please note that the agency was not spoiled by the two translators who offered lower rates. Yes the agency took the free money offered by the translators, but the agency continues to offer orig... See more I fully support Robert Forstag's idea.
Eleftherios Kritikakis, you posted some great comments but you contradict yourself: you claim that translators will spoil even the most principled agencies with low rates, yet you describe an agency with automated system sending flat rate 0.10 EUR jobs. Please note that the agency was not spoiled by the two translators who offered lower rates. Yes the agency took the free money offered by the translators, but the agency continues to offer original flat rates to all the others. I know this agency - i worked for them.
I like Eleftherios's idea of displaying rate ranges. I agree with Eleftherios that cheap poor translation has its role, has its own market. Many agencies will refuse to report their rate ranges, in my opinion. Translators should report rate ranges.
Ordering offers with the help of the community is a proven idea, tested by highly successful news sites such as slashdot.org.
Implementing either Robert's or Eleftherios's idea would be far better than current situation
How do we get started? Will Robert or Eleftherios submit a formal request to proz.com? Will other translators be able to see the request and support it like a petition? ▲ Collapse
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Why not ban outsourcers that offer less than 0.08 €/word from this site? Members do not pay their fees to give such agencies a forum.
When browsing through the job offers I certainly do not want to read something like 'looking for skilled translators, low rates, tight deadlines'.
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