| Număr de pagini: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Inițiatorul discuției: XXXphxxx (X)
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| Problem fixed | Jul 2, 2012 |
OK, so just one native language is permitted based on fixed criteria: e.g you spent x years of your youth from minimum age x and went to school/university up until at least grade/degree x in a country where your native language is spoken, and maybe more criteria.
If you meet all these criteria for more than one language that's fine, you select one native language and the rest are 'as good as' native. All others who believe they master a language as good as the natives can use that descript... See more OK, so just one native language is permitted based on fixed criteria: e.g you spent x years of your youth from minimum age x and went to school/university up until at least grade/degree x in a country where your native language is spoken, and maybe more criteria.
If you meet all these criteria for more than one language that's fine, you select one native language and the rest are 'as good as' native. All others who believe they master a language as good as the natives can use that descriptor too. Clients can select for 'native' or 'as good as native', and can see or request what criteria are involved, and if they want they can request some kind of evidence that the native or as good as native translator is as good as they say. There, problem fixed. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirsten Bodart 
Regatul Unit
Local time: 22:37
din olandeză în engleză
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| They already do that | Jul 2, 2012 |
They already do tests to request proof to see that you are really as good as you are. I don't see how that is different.
No doubt that is because there is a lot of rifraf about.
| | | | | Yes, it is that bad ! | Jul 2, 2012 |
Kirsten Bodart wrote: Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
Spelling and punctuation would only not be a mark of nativeness if the person is a poor writer or had little education, but that does not apply to translators.
"but that does not apply to translators", really !!?? Are you sure, Samuel ?  When editing translations made by pure "French native" translators, I can assure you that I can find a lot of spelling and/or grammar mistakes, that are politely called "typos" by some, unfortunately. The same with punctuation. Nowadays, this type of errors is no longer a mark of "nativeness" or "non-nativeness", it is the mark of the present era. Catherine Definitely. Tell me, do translators nowadays also write past participles where they want an infinitive and vice versa or not? Or à and a? Or is it not that bad yet? [Edited at 2012-07-02 17:54 GMT]
Yes, Kirsten, it is already that bad. Not to mention the agreement of past participles with the verbs and direct objects  . "Phonetic" spelling is more and more frequently used.
This is getting awful.
Catherine
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Regatul Unit
Local time: 21:37
din portugheză în engleză
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INIŢIATORUL SUBIECTULUI | Perfectly happy with that | Jul 2, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
So, the definition would be: the/a language that you 1) acquired during the critical period, 2) STILL speak AND 3) consider the language you speak BEST.
However, I'm not the one you need to convince. I've been happy to go along with a number of definitions/solutions for the sake of taking a step forward. There will no doubt be people coming along shortly to disagree with your definition.
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"There will no doubt be people coming along shortly to disagree with your definition."
Of course I still speak my native language, but not when I go down to the shops and otherwise go about my daily business, which is what I understand is meant with 'still speak' (at least by some). Maybe it should be the language that you 'still think in', and then Proz need only employ a team of native or as good as native psychics to verify that you think like a native or as good as one.
| | | | | Excellent :-) | Jul 2, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
"There will no doubt be people coming along shortly to disagree with your definition."
Of course I still speak my native language, but not when I go down to the shops and otherwise go about my daily business, which is what I understand is meant with 'still speak' (at least by some). Maybe it should be the language that you 'still think in', and then Proz need only employ a team of native or as good as native psychics to verify that you think like a native or as good as one.
Very funny ! At least a touch of humour in this thread. Really needed it!
Catherine
[Edited at 2012-07-02 19:08 GMT]
| | | | | Sorry Bernard, but unfortunately you are wrong | Jul 2, 2012 |
You cannot claim Bernard that all linguists, including the people working on the Wikipedia are wrong, and you are right, with your conservative, outdated definition of a native language. There are many children in the United States, or teenagers rather, who came here at the age of 9-10. Many of them cannot write in their L1, some don't even speak their L1 well at the age of fifteen, yet many speak English at a level comparable to the level of the children who were born here. What would you say a... See more You cannot claim Bernard that all linguists, including the people working on the Wikipedia are wrong, and you are right, with your conservative, outdated definition of a native language. There are many children in the United States, or teenagers rather, who came here at the age of 9-10. Many of them cannot write in their L1, some don't even speak their L1 well at the age of fifteen, yet many speak English at a level comparable to the level of the children who were born here. What would you say about that? Secondly nobody will tell anyone what their native language is. They may tell the person if they are satisfied with their translation or not: this is about it. I agree that all of the above applies more to such languages as English, Spanish, French, perhaps, but especially English since it the the unofficial Lingua Franca of the 21st century. May people can speak it quite well because of the overwhelming input ( TV, movies, music, articles, books, blogs, etc.) The aristocracy of the 19th century would often declare French as their native language, no matter how well they spoke it, rathe than the language of the country where they lived. The above may not apply to the same extent to other, more rare languages. I agree that it is really unusual to meet a translator who did not grow up in Russia, and whose parents were not Russian- speaking and he or she could translate successfully into that language. It would take probably 20 years of living in Russia, university education, and reading an enormous number of books in that language to become a good translator into that language. I think this is true probably about many other languages. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Now that some have decided | Jul 2, 2012 |
Now that some have decided, in behalf of the whole community, who is native and who is not, even if it may deny any genetic evidence,
a) Who will implement this decree?
b) How will this decree be implemented?
c) How much shall we have to pay for this new "service"?
Please excuse my impudence, but as a pure typical Frenchie, I am a very practical woman.
Catherine
[Edited at 2012-07-02 19:22 GMT]
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Michele Fauble
Statele Unite
Local time: 13:37
Membru (2006)
din norvegiană în engleză
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| Native speaker | Jul 2, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
I think that that comment brings us back to the definition of "native speaker".
It certainly does, and I think your understanding of native speaker is muddled and fundamentally flawed. Mine is informed by my studies in linguistics. Please don't be offended, but I would urge you to read an introductory linguistics textbook.
| | | | | Psychics or private investigators | Jul 2, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
Maybe it should be the language that you 'still think in', and then Proz need only employ a team of native or as good as native psychics to verify that you think like a native or as good as one.
Well, according to some philosophers, the native language is the one you pray in. Others suggest it is the one you curse in. A private investigator could catch you at least cursing, so that's another way to verify.
Of course, youngsters over here in Romania are so fond of the English f-word that I think half of them would be qualified as native English speakers based on that criterion...
| | | | BeaDeer (X)
din engleză în slovenă
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| I don't recall having read even one post about not allowing non-native speakers to bid on jobs | Jul 2, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I agree people should absolutely not lie about their native languages
I am glad to see you agree.
....non-native speakers should be at least allowed to bid on all jobs in their language pairs.
I do not see why you are saying this.
Has anyone in this discussion said anything like that?
No, no one has mentioned anything of the sort.
[Edited at 2012-07-02 20:06 GMT]
| | | | | Non-native speakers are not allowed to bid on certain jobs | Jul 2, 2012 |
Hi, were you not aware, Bea, that there are many jobs on which non-native speakers cannot bid, because they are restricted. This is basically what I was referring to, no matter whether anyone else had mentioned it before, or not. I think this is the reason some might stretch their native language definition because they feel they could do the jobs but they cannot bid on them.
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Ty Kendall
Regatul Unit
Local time: 21:37
din ebraică în engleză
| Why the sense of entitlement? | Jul 2, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
....non-native speakers should be at least allowed to bid on all jobs in their language pairs.
I'm not allowed to bid on all jobs in my language pair. Nobody can. There's plenty of jobs I feel I'm qualified for but I can't apply. They either want someone who lives in the U.S. or has U.S. citizenship...someone who has so many years experience or a massive list of credentials or....
The native language criterion is just one more factor an outsourcer can limit their search to. And rightly so. It's their net, it's not my job to tell them to cast it wider.
I don't lose sleep over not being able to bid on a bunch of jobs on here and I don't feel I have an inherent entitlement to them either.
[Edited at 2012-07-02 20:18 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Ţările de Jos
Local time: 22:37
Membru (2006)
din engleză în afrikaans
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| @Michele -- mine is informed by pragmatics | Jul 2, 2012 |
Michele Fauble wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
I think that that comment brings us back to the definition of "native speaker". It certainly does, and I think your understanding of native speaker is muddled and fundamentally flawed. Mine is informed by my studies in linguistics.
Allow me to sketch a sad but common scenario from South Africa, where I'm from:
Suppose parents believe that their children will be most happy and successful if they are English. So from the day of conception they speak only English to each other and to their children, and they encourage all of their friends and family who visit the home to speak only English to each other and to the children. They send their children to schools where practically all children come from similar homes with similar views, and all teachers speak only English to the children, and where speaking anything else but English during school hours is punishable. Would you consider their children to be native speakers of English?
What if none of the parents, family members or teachers are native speakers of English, but at least the teachers speak it very well, and the rest of the people speak it well enough to get by? Would you still regard the children as native speakers of English?
What if most of the parents and family members speak English barely at the second-language level? Or what if the parents and family members speak it only at roughly tourist-language level, so that the only place where children encounter real English is at school or on television? Are those children still native speakers of English?
According to the definition of "native speaker" in general linguistics, the answer is yes, yes, yes and yes. And I agree, but if that is so, then that is not useful for translators and clients. So instead of linguistic theory, let's talk about giving clients and translator a choice without asking that everyone be allowed to try out everything.
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I don't know why anyone would want a translator who lives in the US only, or even more, who is a US citizen, unless these were interpreting jobs, then it would be understandable. There are some high security jobs in the US that only US citizens, or perhaps residents in some cases, after a full background check, are allowed to work on, but such jobs are not to be found here.
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