Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

pork, bacon (other animals)

English answer:

... bacon / salt ...

Added to glossary by Tony M
Sep 9, 2016 09:52
7 yrs ago
English term

pork, bacon

English Science Food & Drink meats, fats
I wonder if we have a word in English for "pork" of other animals like moose, elk, deer etc.
Speck in German and spek in Scandinavian languages.
What word covers those parts in other animals than pig?
References
Ref.
Change log

Sep 23, 2016 05:44: Tony M Created KOG entry

Discussion

jeffrey engberg (asker) Sep 23, 2016:
salt pork Nailing it down, the best term so far is "salt pork", identified from lists of provision from old English naval documents. Beef was also brought along, often salted as well...
see:
https://savoringthepast.net/2013/01/08/salted-meat-for-a-jou...
Lingua 5B Sep 12, 2016:
@jeffrey Do you happen to have an image of your product?

It seems like the terms and product types vary. For instance, these:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/bacon/images/d/d2/Speck....

http://www.recla.it/en/products/speck-alto-adige.html

... are called "speck" in those links, but we wouldn't call these products bacon in my country. We would call them prosciutto or smoked pork neck or something like that.

we would call this one bacon:

https://canningsfreerangebutchers.com.au/product/bacon-speck...

basically, we only call it bacon if it has several white and pink stripes in its slice
Björn Vrooman Sep 10, 2016:
To prove my point:

The official guidance document on meat products has "Speck" in it:
"'Speck' ist das unter der Haut des Schweines liegende Fettgewebe ohne Schwarte, auch mit Resten von Skelettmuskulatur. 'Backenspeck' schließt eingelagerte Speicheldrüsen, 'Bauchspeck' die Brust- und Bauchmuskulatur sowie nicht laktierende Milchdrüsen ein."
https://www.bmel.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Ernaehrung/Lebensmi...

But there's also this one:
"'Fettgewebereiches Schweinefleisch': Schweinefleisch mit einem Fettgewebeanteil, wie er bei nicht übermäßig fettem Bauchspeck zu erwarten ist."

Likewise, "Fleischspieße" may contain "Speck," but the second ingredient may just be dropped from the description.

Again, as a general category:
https://www.fleischtheke.info/fleischsorten/schweinefleisch

I'll just see what the maritime museum has to say, since Jeffrey wanted to email or call them.

As mentioned previously, I only have a vague idea of what the Scandinavian "spek" entails because the German word doesn't seem to be an exact match.
Björn Vrooman Sep 10, 2016:
"Schweinefleischspeck or Speck aus...is not a viable concept"

Not sure how to take this. One example:
"Speck ist ein unverzichtbarer Bestandteil klassischer Hausmannskost. Dabei ist das fettreiche Schweinefleisch erstaunlich international: italienischer Lardo, amerikanischer Bacon und Tiroler Speck sind gefragte Spezialitäten."
http://www.essen-und-trinken.de/speck

Do you want to tell me that I don't get "Speck" at a "Fleischtheke" or "bacon" won't be included in "EU-Import von Schweinefleisch"?

As I explained to Lingua, if it is used as a general category (Schweinefleisch, Rindfleisch, etc.), it may say "-fleisch," although it won't be meat in a more restrictive sense of the word (that's why I also said this concept may be confusing to non-native speakers).

And we're not talking about contemporary usage or mass production. I had several examples showing that it's either just about "cured/dried meat" (stashed away in caches along the route) or that it's tinned bacon, etc. brought from "home."

Cf.:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/arctic-explorers-un...

AFAIK, most of these expeditions had some kind of cache system.
Veronika McLaren Sep 10, 2016:
It has been a very "meaty" discussion; just to set the record straight, Schweinefleischspeck or Speck aus...is not a viable concept. Contemporary recipes use both, the ...fleisch and Speck, which can be the durchwachsene "Frühstücksspeck" version to keep the lean meat moist. And sure, we all have probably fried some turkey bacon etc. but that is modern fare. The key, not completely clear at the outset, is the preserved or cured aspect.
jeffrey engberg (asker) Sep 10, 2016:
Arctic explorers, 1900++ There are endless good arguments for speck as pork here.
But the text I am translating refers to Arctic explorers. I am certain we are talking about "preserved meat" brought along from home, or reference to blubber acquired on site.
we know that blubber is not pig, but they used the term as such. I assume the speck taken from home was NOT just bacon. I will contact the maritime museum to find out what they have in their collection.
Lingua 5B Sep 9, 2016:
it was clear, thanks. that's what I thought.

what confused me a bit is that pork, bacon and Speck were used as if they were the same thing, in the original question. perhaps I just missed something.
Björn Vrooman Sep 9, 2016:
PS Unless, and that's where it gets a bit odd I guess, you view "Schweinefleisch" as the higher-order category, including ribs, bacon, etc. You can also say "Speck aus Schweinefleisch" (better "Schweinefleischspeck," although both versions may just be colloquial German). But as actual meat without too much fat? No.

I hope that wasn't too confusing :)
Björn Vrooman Sep 9, 2016:
Ah, I apologize if I didn't understand you correctly. No, Speck shouldn't refer to just pork meat (although it may have a bit of meat in it). The English word used to have the same meaning as the German one. As per the OED:
"Via Italian from Dutch spek, German Speck 'fat bacon, whale blubber' (in which sense it was formerly used in English): related to Old English spec."

The Scandinavian "spek" seems to have this old English sense of the word without any "pork strings" attached. But maybe the meaning is even broader. I can't tell you exactly.

Best
Lingua 5B Sep 9, 2016:
OK, thanks. I understand it means "pork bacon", I was just wondering whether it can mean only "pork", ie. pork meat.

Björn Vrooman Sep 9, 2016:
@Lingua The passage I quoted from Grimms Wörterbuch (19th century) was:
"speck, das wie fett, schmalz, schmer, fleisch collectivum ist, scheint von vornherein nur beziehung auf das schwein zu haben."

It's a book by the Brothers Grimm - you may know their Grimm's Fairy Tales. It's one of the (or the) most comprehensive dictionary on the German language (In English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Wörterbuch ).

The sentence above basically says that "Speck" as in "bacon" seems to refer almost exclusively to pork, not to any other meat. So the German dictionary doesn't differ much from the OED entry on bacon, which limits the meaning accordingly.

If you say "Speck" in German, it'd be automatically assumed that you're talking about pork bacon (there's no difference between pork and pig in German anyway), unless you add a qualifier (as Charles said). For example: Entenspeck (duck bacon)

I'd usually call it "Fett" (fat), but you cannot put both words together:
https://www.gourmet-web.de/Gesund-und-koestlich-Gaense-und-E...

That's for cooking or bread, similar to butter.

Not sure how our northern neighbors handle it, though.
Lingua 5B Sep 9, 2016:
@Bjorn Can "Speck" mean pork in German in any sense or historical period?
Björn Vrooman Sep 9, 2016:
Yes, probably. I did find the topic interesting. I just would've expected them to bring "Pökelfleisch" along, the German term for "cured meat." Thus, I was merely wondering whether this was "bacon" in any sense of the English word.

One excerpt:
"Caches of prepared and packaged food were relatively safe from prowling wolves or polar bears. However, when fresh meat such as caribou or muskox carcasses were cached in winter, they were usually vulnerable to these predators: 'January 8th. Started out again and crossed the gulf to the other side were [sic] Storkersen had a meat cache. Dist 17 m weather good. On our arrival there, we found the cache robed [sic] by wolfs not a splinter of meat left.'"
http://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/hist/cae/foo90e....

And here's a "journal":
http://www.jstor.org/stable/207587?seq=1#page_scan_tab_conte...

If anyone's interested:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_obscura/2014/10/16/food_in_...

So back to "meat," i.e., it entirely depends on what kind of language Jeffrey is supposed to use. Sadly, can't agree with anyone because of the check mark for ProZ.com members.

Have a nice evening, all
Tony M Sep 9, 2016:
@ Björn Thanks for that!

I think it's just that back in those days, food for this kind of purpose wouldn't have made 'poncey' distinctions about niceties of preparation — all that was important was that it would keep long enough to still be edible after a long journey. A great deal of food that doesn't keep terribly well would traditionally have been preserved by some kind of curing and/or drying — even in the context of 'normal' everyday life —and it's probably not the sort of thing that would have been thought worth even mentioning.
Björn Vrooman Sep 9, 2016:
Well, Tony To support your post, see the types of bacon mentioned here (includes a few already mentioned):
http://ohiolovesbacon.com/5-types-of-bacon-not-made-from-pig...

Still find it curious that combined with "expedition," the search will only turn up "tinned bacon" or just "bacon," but otherwise, it's simply called "meat." Not quite sure what these explorers did differently than all the others.
Tony M Sep 9, 2016:
@ Lingua Depending, of course, on the style and purpose of the text, that rather tends to be the way I view it as well — with anything historical, I think it is a writer's (though not necessarily a translator's!) duty to engage the reader and make the past come alive for them; I had the privilege to work for more than 10 years with a journalist who taught me so much about the history of France through his fascinating articles, in which he drew meaningful parallels with the modern world which made it easy to identify with the sometimes fairly abstruse historical context.
Lingua 5B Sep 9, 2016:
@Tony I would say that providing clarity for the reader should be a priority. any potential additional info relating to historical differences of the term may be put in a footnote (optionally)
Björn Vrooman Sep 9, 2016:
And here's... ...The Forgotten Explorer: Samuel Prescott Fay's 1914 Expedition:
"we will catch some more fish to help out the food supply and save our supply of cured meat."
https://books.google.de/books?id=59Qu7vlH8w4C&pg=PT110&lpg=P...

...or the Arctic Ordeal: The Journal of John Richardson
"When they had dried meat or pemmican (the differentiation was not always made)"
https://books.google.de/books?id=OQ6BM-VSDl0C&pg=PA193&lpg=P...

I can't seem to find anything besides dried/cured meat.
Björn Vrooman Sep 9, 2016:
@Jeffrey "Speck in German and spek in Scandinavian languages"

At least when it comes to German, your statement does not appear to be true. "Speck" as in Grimms Wörterbuch (that's from before the time of the polar expedition):
"speck, das wie fett, schmalz, schmer, fleisch collectivum ist, scheint von vornherein nur beziehung auf das schwein zu haben."
http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/?sigle=DWB&mode=Vernetzung&lem...

That leaves the Scandinavian version:
https://books.google.de/books?id=snUQAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA1116&dq=s...

"außen am Fleisch liegendes Fett"

"bacon" does not come from the Scandinavian word, but from central Europe:
http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=bacon&allowed_in_frame=...

Even the OED says it's from Old French.

Here's the Canadian's guide to elk meat:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/90/db/88/90db88550...

Does anything match?

Veronika McLaren Sep 9, 2016:
That would indicate that it is the fatty part of the animal, equivalent to bacon.
Sheila Wilson Sep 9, 2016:
Belly? It sounds too obvious, but couldn't you just use belly in conjunction with other words: cured/salted/smoked + the animal + belly?
jeffrey engberg (asker) Sep 9, 2016:
yes, I feel we are leaning toward salted/cured. My text is from 1901. I think they used spekk to cover a wider range of nutritional products than the pork implied in a modern context. Some times it meas "blubber" if taken raw or fresh from a seal or whale. Other times it is from the supplies/provisions taken on board months or years ago - that would be the cured pig. Other times they made it or bought it from the locals or local merchant.
Veronika McLaren Sep 9, 2016:
How about salt (cured) venison? Bacon isn't really speck, but "durchwachsener Speck" and the fatty piece is generally called salt pork, streaked with lean it is bacon...
jeffrey engberg (asker) Sep 9, 2016:
the question is and was quite clear My question remains, what do we call the fatty parts that are salted and or cured, like bacon, from other animals?
Charles Davis Sep 9, 2016:
@Jeffrey Yes, I have heard "flitch". But it won't do you here any better than bacon. First, flitch is not a generic synonym for bacon as a type of meat; it's a quantity (a side) of bacon (and I find it can also mean a halibut steak, which I didn't know). And it's specifically pork, so it doesn't offer any advantage over "bacon".
jeffrey engberg (asker) Sep 9, 2016:
flitch Finding an outdated and unused term (for me at least) for cured/salted side meat.
Ever hear that one before?
I still feel that bacon is wrong. Bacon is pig in all my dictionaries.
Pemmican is not "flesk" or bacon either. Pemmican is pemmican.
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 9, 2016:
it's called "pemmican"
Agneta Pallinder Sep 9, 2016:
cured fatty meat! How about simply saying "cured fatty meat", then, Jeffrey?
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 9, 2016:
Importance of full Context

Asker, that last info changes things and I wish you'd given it at the beginning. I've added a note. I thought of putting a new answer but it wouldn't match your inital question so will just add it on
jeffrey engberg (asker) Sep 9, 2016:
A little of both, Agneta The document is about polar explorers 1901-6. They either hunt caribou or bring speck with them in their provisions. Or both!
Generally speaking, they mean cured fatty meat. I can't write "the cured or salted fatty parts of (animal)" to replace "spekk". It just sounds stupid. And "caribou bacon" feels even stupider. Thanks!
Agneta Pallinder Sep 9, 2016:
Späck v. bacon Jeffrey - do you mean the subcutaneous fat layer that pigs have (also wales etc.) - Swedish späck - or du you mean cured (smoked, salted) meat - bacon?
Lingua 5B Sep 9, 2016:
it's not incorrect either http://www.baconfreak.com/bacon-freak-all-natual-lamb-bacon....

this is not incorrect, it is in use. however, there may be more specific terms out there, not sure.

and yes, it wasn't clear whether you were looking for an equivalent of pork or bacon (not quite the same thing)


jeffrey engberg (asker) Sep 9, 2016:
maybe I am being unclear about the question I know what bacon is. I know what venison is.
Venison is the name of the meat, in general, for game.
I COULD say "goat bacon", "lamb bacon" or "venison bacon"
But surely that is not specific or correct?
Lingua 5B Sep 9, 2016:
bacon vs. pork as far as I'm aware, Speck=bacon

the German word for pork is Schweinefleisch?

Responses

+3
9 hrs
English term (edited): bacon [from other animals]
Selected

... bacon

It is quite common nowadays to use the terms 'bacon' and 'ham' to refer to the same kind of meats prepared from different animals; I really don't see any problem with using it here, even if it does lead to some terms that sound unwieldy simply because they are unfamiliar.
Peer comment(s):

agree Lingua 5B : it is definitely used that way in my language, eg. turkey ham (both official and colloquial use). the only problem here may be reference from the beginning of the 20th century and potential different usages and connotations of the term at the time.
53 mins
Thanks, Lingua! The eternel problem: do we use modern language so the reader can understand and identify with it; or use archaic 'period' language which may leave the reader uncomprehending and alienated?
agree Yasutomo Kanazawa : This is may be the most comprehensive term even for non-native speakers like me.
9 hrs
Thanks, Yasutomo-san!
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : I suggested this (qualified by animal) + 9hrs before you (as in original question). Changed to "pemmican" (ahead of CD!) when polar expeditions was added as I don't think "bacon" is suitable at all here & unless qualified =pork.
16 hrs
As this wasn't your headword answer, and your answer was rather long and 'evolutionary', I didn't even notice you HAD suggested it... But in any case, I think it merited to be pulled out and given an answer of its own.
agree acetran
2 days 13 hrs
Thanks, Ace!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
1 hr

pemmican

I think that in practice this may be what you want. Amundsen certainly had it.

"Pemmican is a concentrated mixture of fat and protein used as a nutritious food. It is part of Canadian cuisine. [...] It was widely adopted as a high-energy food by Europeans involved in the fur trade and later by Arctic and Antarctic explorers, such as Sir Ernest Henry Shackleton, Fridtjof Nansen, Robert Falcon Scott and Roald Amundsen.
The specific ingredients used were usually whatever was available; the meat was often bison, deer, elk, or moose."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican

Alternatively, I think you could just use "speck". I don't feel that "venison" is suitable, however qualified.

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Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:11:46 GMT)
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Bacon, unqualified, always means from pigs. Qualified (elk bacon, moose bacon, etc.) it sounds odd to me. And of course you have the problem that several different kinds of animal are involved, so you're going to end up with a cumbersome translation like that.
Peer comment(s):

neutral B D Finch : According to this recipe, it's not quite "speck": http://www.offthegridnews.com/how-to-2/how-to-make-pemmican-...
42 mins
No, it isn't. And the asker has specifically said this is not what he's looking for. Never mind.
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+3
3 hrs

preserved/cured + name of animal (meat)

The Micmac took what was needed and wasted little. The meat was cured. The rib cage was sometimes cooked whole, mounted over a fire or left under a tin stove. When cooked the ribs were withdrawn and the slab of meat rolled and packed. The head was roasted, suspended over an open fire or boiled in a large pot. The resulting combination of flesh, fat and brain assumed a texture like tinned corned beef when cooled. Entrails were eaten; intestines were flushed and plaited. After a kill hunters often indulged in a “gut feed,” boiling intestines with liver, heart and lungs. Hip and leg bones were broken into short lengths and boiled until the fat melted. The marrow was removed and either eaten alone or mixed with fat. “I give you a taste of it and I'll have to drive you off with my gun,” advises Peter Oliver of Bay St. George. “We didn't waste anything, never threw anything away, except maybe for the feet. Even then some of us used to eat them too, like the pig's feet you can buy in the stores today.”

Black bears were hunted as they fed on ripe berries on the barrens and rocky hillsides. Bear fat was rendered in a large pot. Sometimes caribou fat was added to produce a firmer texture. Blood and other impurities were skimmed off and the melted fat was poured into birch bark vessels and left to cool overnight. The rendered fat, muinomi, was used as cooking oil and butter. In fall a prime bear yielded considerable fat, enough to fill a large flour sack in some cases.

Bear meat was eaten fresh or preserved either by smoking or boiling in salted water. Cormack learned bear meat was “by many of the Indians esteemed next to that of the beaver's, and it has the peculiar quality of not clogging the stomach, however much of it is eaten.” Organs and entrails were eaten as a matter of taste. One old hunter, Noel Louis, used bear stomach in a unique fashion. It was turned inside out, stuffed with caribou or beaver, sewn tight and boiled for several hours. The stomach, if properly sewn, would preserve the stuffing for some time.

http://storiesofconneriver.ca/EN/history/hunting_trapping.ph...

Preserved Lamb Meat
Back to the archive >
Sloi

Sloi is a product typically prepared in autumn in Marginimea Sibiului, Bran and Hunedoara (pastoral communities around the Carpathian Mountains), when the sheep return from the mountains.

http://www.fondazioneslowfood.com/en/ark-of-taste-slow-food/...

How to Cure Meat

Curing is a technique which basically involves preserving the meat in salt. This was one of the most common ways of keeping meat fresh in the days before refrigeration. Some still use it today, but now it is more about enhancing the flavor of the meat, not about preserving it.

http://www.survivopedia.com/how-to-preserve-meat/
Note from asker:
who ever said the "Eskimo" doesn't eat greens? I understand that one of the delicacies was to suck the intestines of caribou, seal etc. what a rich source of vegetation, fiber and vitamins that must be!
Peer comment(s):

agree Veronika McLaren
9 hrs
Thank you, Veronika. After I posted my answer I reread the discussion and I realised that you had already suggested an answer very similar to mine. I honestly hadn't see it.
agree Yasutomo Kanazawa : This is also easy to understand.
16 hrs
Thank you, Yasutomo :-)
agree GILLES MEUNIER : oui
11 days
Merci, GILOU :-)
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31 mins

venison

venison is meat from deer and other members of the family

if not from deer (the usual venison meat)
just add moose venison, elk venison etc.

https://www.reference.com/pets-animals/animal-venison-come-8...

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Note added at 35 mins (2016-09-09 10:28:50 GMT)
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SORRY!

jUST REALISED YOU WERE LOOKING FOR THE BACON PART


JUST ADD THAT TO "VENISON"

SO <B>VENISON BACON, ELK VENISON BACON ETC




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2016-09-09 10:29:33 GMT)
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VENISON BACON, ELK VENISON BACON etc.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 40 mins (2016-09-09 10:33:48 GMT)
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though it seems that venison bacon has pork added to it
https://www.leaf.tv/articles/how-to-make-venison-bacon/

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 50 mins (2016-09-09 10:43:43 GMT)
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Your initial question wasn't very clear. But you just add the word "venison" (from animals in the cervid family) to the part of meat
so yes, "venison bacon" IS correct!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venison

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Note added at 55 mins (2016-09-09 10:48:18 GMT)
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I didn't know this! (from the last link)
"...Organ meats of deer are eaten, but would not be called venison. Rather, they are called umbles (originally noumbles). This is supposedly the origins of the phrase "humble pie", literally a pie made from the organs of the deer..."

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Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:05:05 GMT)
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pemmican, jerky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican

most likely for Polar exploration
http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antarctica fact file/science/f...

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Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:09:16 GMT)
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http://highsteaks.com/carnivores-creed/pemmican/

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Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:27:24 GMT)
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question changed again?...so now it's a side of bacon?= flitch! which is a word from Norse

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flitch

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Note added at 3 hrs (2016-09-09 13:14:06 GMT)
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OK, my final comment
I understand you don't want to use "venison bacon" etc. as I agree it could be unwieldy, so why not just use the term "spek" and explain it the first time as "cured/salted (fatty)meat" (except venison is quite lean) or else perhaps "cured/pickled meat from various animals" and then just use "spek" (in italics) afterwards.
The problem with using the English spelling "speck" is that it doesn't seem to be the same thing at all as this usually refers to a type of Austrian/Italian bacon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speck
http://www.foodgeeks.com/encyclopedia/304

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-1
1 day 22 hrs

lard

Not as a translation of bacon, obviously, but as a more general term for animal fat, possibly useable here.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Tony M : I think this kind of misses the point, as in EN-GB at least it refers (almost?) exclusively to rendered PORK fat — and pure, non-cured fat only, not fatty meat. So really, this doesn't cover the requirement here on either count.
3 mins
Agreed, in current parlance more a translation of "ister". I was inspired by the verb, really, to lard lean meat by stuffing it with pieces of fat.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

13 mins
Reference:

Ref.

Meat from other animals, such as beef, lamb, chicken, goat, or turkey, may also be cut, cured, or otherwise prepared to resemble bacon, and may even be referred to as "bacon".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Tony M
1 day 22 hrs
agree Yasutomo Kanazawa
2 days 22 hrs
agree acetran
2 days 23 hrs
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