Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
pork, bacon (other animals)
English answer:
... bacon / salt ...
Added to glossary by
Tony M
Sep 9, 2016 09:52
7 yrs ago
English term
pork, bacon
English
Science
Food & Drink
meats, fats
I wonder if we have a word in English for "pork" of other animals like moose, elk, deer etc.
Speck in German and spek in Scandinavian languages.
What word covers those parts in other animals than pig?
Speck in German and spek in Scandinavian languages.
What word covers those parts in other animals than pig?
Responses
3 +3 | ... bacon | Tony M |
2 +3 | preserved/cured + name of animal (meat) | Helena Chavarria |
4 | venison | Yvonne Gallagher |
3 | pemmican | Charles Davis |
2 -1 | lard | Agneta Pallinder |
Change log
Sep 23, 2016 05:44: Tony M Created KOG entry
Responses
+3
9 hrs
English term (edited):
bacon [from other animals]
Selected
... bacon
It is quite common nowadays to use the terms 'bacon' and 'ham' to refer to the same kind of meats prepared from different animals; I really don't see any problem with using it here, even if it does lead to some terms that sound unwieldy simply because they are unfamiliar.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Lingua 5B
: it is definitely used that way in my language, eg. turkey ham (both official and colloquial use). the only problem here may be reference from the beginning of the 20th century and potential different usages and connotations of the term at the time.
53 mins
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Thanks, Lingua! The eternel problem: do we use modern language so the reader can understand and identify with it; or use archaic 'period' language which may leave the reader uncomprehending and alienated?
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agree |
Yasutomo Kanazawa
: This is may be the most comprehensive term even for non-native speakers like me.
9 hrs
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Thanks, Yasutomo-san!
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neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: I suggested this (qualified by animal) + 9hrs before you (as in original question). Changed to "pemmican" (ahead of CD!) when polar expeditions was added as I don't think "bacon" is suitable at all here & unless qualified =pork.
16 hrs
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As this wasn't your headword answer, and your answer was rather long and 'evolutionary', I didn't even notice you HAD suggested it... But in any case, I think it merited to be pulled out and given an answer of its own.
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agree |
acetran
2 days 13 hrs
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Thanks, Ace!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
1 hr
pemmican
I think that in practice this may be what you want. Amundsen certainly had it.
"Pemmican is a concentrated mixture of fat and protein used as a nutritious food. It is part of Canadian cuisine. [...] It was widely adopted as a high-energy food by Europeans involved in the fur trade and later by Arctic and Antarctic explorers, such as Sir Ernest Henry Shackleton, Fridtjof Nansen, Robert Falcon Scott and Roald Amundsen.
The specific ingredients used were usually whatever was available; the meat was often bison, deer, elk, or moose."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican
Alternatively, I think you could just use "speck". I don't feel that "venison" is suitable, however qualified.
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Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:11:46 GMT)
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Bacon, unqualified, always means from pigs. Qualified (elk bacon, moose bacon, etc.) it sounds odd to me. And of course you have the problem that several different kinds of animal are involved, so you're going to end up with a cumbersome translation like that.
"Pemmican is a concentrated mixture of fat and protein used as a nutritious food. It is part of Canadian cuisine. [...] It was widely adopted as a high-energy food by Europeans involved in the fur trade and later by Arctic and Antarctic explorers, such as Sir Ernest Henry Shackleton, Fridtjof Nansen, Robert Falcon Scott and Roald Amundsen.
The specific ingredients used were usually whatever was available; the meat was often bison, deer, elk, or moose."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican
Alternatively, I think you could just use "speck". I don't feel that "venison" is suitable, however qualified.
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Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:11:46 GMT)
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Bacon, unqualified, always means from pigs. Qualified (elk bacon, moose bacon, etc.) it sounds odd to me. And of course you have the problem that several different kinds of animal are involved, so you're going to end up with a cumbersome translation like that.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
B D Finch
: According to this recipe, it's not quite "speck": http://www.offthegridnews.com/how-to-2/how-to-make-pemmican-...
42 mins
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No, it isn't. And the asker has specifically said this is not what he's looking for. Never mind.
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+3
3 hrs
preserved/cured + name of animal (meat)
The Micmac took what was needed and wasted little. The meat was cured. The rib cage was sometimes cooked whole, mounted over a fire or left under a tin stove. When cooked the ribs were withdrawn and the slab of meat rolled and packed. The head was roasted, suspended over an open fire or boiled in a large pot. The resulting combination of flesh, fat and brain assumed a texture like tinned corned beef when cooled. Entrails were eaten; intestines were flushed and plaited. After a kill hunters often indulged in a “gut feed,” boiling intestines with liver, heart and lungs. Hip and leg bones were broken into short lengths and boiled until the fat melted. The marrow was removed and either eaten alone or mixed with fat. “I give you a taste of it and I'll have to drive you off with my gun,” advises Peter Oliver of Bay St. George. “We didn't waste anything, never threw anything away, except maybe for the feet. Even then some of us used to eat them too, like the pig's feet you can buy in the stores today.”
Black bears were hunted as they fed on ripe berries on the barrens and rocky hillsides. Bear fat was rendered in a large pot. Sometimes caribou fat was added to produce a firmer texture. Blood and other impurities were skimmed off and the melted fat was poured into birch bark vessels and left to cool overnight. The rendered fat, muinomi, was used as cooking oil and butter. In fall a prime bear yielded considerable fat, enough to fill a large flour sack in some cases.
Bear meat was eaten fresh or preserved either by smoking or boiling in salted water. Cormack learned bear meat was “by many of the Indians esteemed next to that of the beaver's, and it has the peculiar quality of not clogging the stomach, however much of it is eaten.” Organs and entrails were eaten as a matter of taste. One old hunter, Noel Louis, used bear stomach in a unique fashion. It was turned inside out, stuffed with caribou or beaver, sewn tight and boiled for several hours. The stomach, if properly sewn, would preserve the stuffing for some time.
http://storiesofconneriver.ca/EN/history/hunting_trapping.ph...
Preserved Lamb Meat
Back to the archive >
Sloi
Sloi is a product typically prepared in autumn in Marginimea Sibiului, Bran and Hunedoara (pastoral communities around the Carpathian Mountains), when the sheep return from the mountains.
http://www.fondazioneslowfood.com/en/ark-of-taste-slow-food/...
How to Cure Meat
Curing is a technique which basically involves preserving the meat in salt. This was one of the most common ways of keeping meat fresh in the days before refrigeration. Some still use it today, but now it is more about enhancing the flavor of the meat, not about preserving it.
http://www.survivopedia.com/how-to-preserve-meat/
Black bears were hunted as they fed on ripe berries on the barrens and rocky hillsides. Bear fat was rendered in a large pot. Sometimes caribou fat was added to produce a firmer texture. Blood and other impurities were skimmed off and the melted fat was poured into birch bark vessels and left to cool overnight. The rendered fat, muinomi, was used as cooking oil and butter. In fall a prime bear yielded considerable fat, enough to fill a large flour sack in some cases.
Bear meat was eaten fresh or preserved either by smoking or boiling in salted water. Cormack learned bear meat was “by many of the Indians esteemed next to that of the beaver's, and it has the peculiar quality of not clogging the stomach, however much of it is eaten.” Organs and entrails were eaten as a matter of taste. One old hunter, Noel Louis, used bear stomach in a unique fashion. It was turned inside out, stuffed with caribou or beaver, sewn tight and boiled for several hours. The stomach, if properly sewn, would preserve the stuffing for some time.
http://storiesofconneriver.ca/EN/history/hunting_trapping.ph...
Preserved Lamb Meat
Back to the archive >
Sloi
Sloi is a product typically prepared in autumn in Marginimea Sibiului, Bran and Hunedoara (pastoral communities around the Carpathian Mountains), when the sheep return from the mountains.
http://www.fondazioneslowfood.com/en/ark-of-taste-slow-food/...
How to Cure Meat
Curing is a technique which basically involves preserving the meat in salt. This was one of the most common ways of keeping meat fresh in the days before refrigeration. Some still use it today, but now it is more about enhancing the flavor of the meat, not about preserving it.
http://www.survivopedia.com/how-to-preserve-meat/
Note from asker:
who ever said the "Eskimo" doesn't eat greens? I understand that one of the delicacies was to suck the intestines of caribou, seal etc. what a rich source of vegetation, fiber and vitamins that must be! |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Veronika McLaren
9 hrs
|
Thank you, Veronika. After I posted my answer I reread the discussion and I realised that you had already suggested an answer very similar to mine. I honestly hadn't see it.
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agree |
Yasutomo Kanazawa
: This is also easy to understand.
16 hrs
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Thank you, Yasutomo :-)
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agree |
GILLES MEUNIER
: oui
11 days
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Merci, GILOU :-)
|
31 mins
venison
venison is meat from deer and other members of the family
if not from deer (the usual venison meat)
just add moose venison, elk venison etc.
https://www.reference.com/pets-animals/animal-venison-come-8...
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Note added at 35 mins (2016-09-09 10:28:50 GMT)
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SORRY!
jUST REALISED YOU WERE LOOKING FOR THE BACON PART
JUST ADD THAT TO "VENISON"
SO <B>VENISON BACON, ELK VENISON BACON ETC
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Note added at 36 mins (2016-09-09 10:29:33 GMT)
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VENISON BACON, ELK VENISON BACON etc.
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Note added at 40 mins (2016-09-09 10:33:48 GMT)
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though it seems that venison bacon has pork added to it
https://www.leaf.tv/articles/how-to-make-venison-bacon/
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Note added at 50 mins (2016-09-09 10:43:43 GMT)
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Your initial question wasn't very clear. But you just add the word "venison" (from animals in the cervid family) to the part of meat
so yes, "venison bacon" IS correct!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venison
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Note added at 55 mins (2016-09-09 10:48:18 GMT)
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I didn't know this! (from the last link)
"...Organ meats of deer are eaten, but would not be called venison. Rather, they are called umbles (originally noumbles). This is supposedly the origins of the phrase "humble pie", literally a pie made from the organs of the deer..."
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Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:05:05 GMT)
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pemmican, jerky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican
most likely for Polar exploration
http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antarctica fact file/science/f...
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Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:09:16 GMT)
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http://highsteaks.com/carnivores-creed/pemmican/
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Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:27:24 GMT)
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question changed again?...so now it's a side of bacon?= flitch! which is a word from Norse
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flitch
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Note added at 3 hrs (2016-09-09 13:14:06 GMT)
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OK, my final comment
I understand you don't want to use "venison bacon" etc. as I agree it could be unwieldy, so why not just use the term "spek" and explain it the first time as "cured/salted (fatty)meat" (except venison is quite lean) or else perhaps "cured/pickled meat from various animals" and then just use "spek" (in italics) afterwards.
The problem with using the English spelling "speck" is that it doesn't seem to be the same thing at all as this usually refers to a type of Austrian/Italian bacon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speck
http://www.foodgeeks.com/encyclopedia/304
if not from deer (the usual venison meat)
just add moose venison, elk venison etc.
https://www.reference.com/pets-animals/animal-venison-come-8...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 35 mins (2016-09-09 10:28:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
SORRY!
jUST REALISED YOU WERE LOOKING FOR THE BACON PART
JUST ADD THAT TO "VENISON"
SO <B>VENISON BACON, ELK VENISON BACON ETC
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2016-09-09 10:29:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
VENISON BACON, ELK VENISON BACON etc.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 40 mins (2016-09-09 10:33:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
though it seems that venison bacon has pork added to it
https://www.leaf.tv/articles/how-to-make-venison-bacon/
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 50 mins (2016-09-09 10:43:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Your initial question wasn't very clear. But you just add the word "venison" (from animals in the cervid family) to the part of meat
so yes, "venison bacon" IS correct!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venison
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 55 mins (2016-09-09 10:48:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I didn't know this! (from the last link)
"...Organ meats of deer are eaten, but would not be called venison. Rather, they are called umbles (originally noumbles). This is supposedly the origins of the phrase "humble pie", literally a pie made from the organs of the deer..."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:05:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
pemmican, jerky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican
most likely for Polar exploration
http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antarctica fact file/science/f...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:09:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://highsteaks.com/carnivores-creed/pemmican/
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:27:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
question changed again?...so now it's a side of bacon?= flitch! which is a word from Norse
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flitch
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2016-09-09 13:14:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
OK, my final comment
I understand you don't want to use "venison bacon" etc. as I agree it could be unwieldy, so why not just use the term "spek" and explain it the first time as "cured/salted (fatty)meat" (except venison is quite lean) or else perhaps "cured/pickled meat from various animals" and then just use "spek" (in italics) afterwards.
The problem with using the English spelling "speck" is that it doesn't seem to be the same thing at all as this usually refers to a type of Austrian/Italian bacon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speck
http://www.foodgeeks.com/encyclopedia/304
-1
1 day 22 hrs
lard
Not as a translation of bacon, obviously, but as a more general term for animal fat, possibly useable here.
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Tony M
: I think this kind of misses the point, as in EN-GB at least it refers (almost?) exclusively to rendered PORK fat — and pure, non-cured fat only, not fatty meat. So really, this doesn't cover the requirement here on either count.
3 mins
|
Agreed, in current parlance more a translation of "ister". I was inspired by the verb, really, to lard lean meat by stuffing it with pieces of fat.
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Reference comments
13 mins
Reference:
Ref.
Meat from other animals, such as beef, lamb, chicken, goat, or turkey, may also be cut, cured, or otherwise prepared to resemble bacon, and may even be referred to as "bacon".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon
Reference:
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
Tony M
1 day 22 hrs
|
agree |
Yasutomo Kanazawa
2 days 22 hrs
|
agree |
acetran
2 days 23 hrs
|
Discussion
see:
https://savoringthepast.net/2013/01/08/salted-meat-for-a-jou...
It seems like the terms and product types vary. For instance, these:
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/bacon/images/d/d2/Speck....
http://www.recla.it/en/products/speck-alto-adige.html
... are called "speck" in those links, but we wouldn't call these products bacon in my country. We would call them prosciutto or smoked pork neck or something like that.
we would call this one bacon:
https://canningsfreerangebutchers.com.au/product/bacon-speck...
basically, we only call it bacon if it has several white and pink stripes in its slice
The official guidance document on meat products has "Speck" in it:
"'Speck' ist das unter der Haut des Schweines liegende Fettgewebe ohne Schwarte, auch mit Resten von Skelettmuskulatur. 'Backenspeck' schließt eingelagerte Speicheldrüsen, 'Bauchspeck' die Brust- und Bauchmuskulatur sowie nicht laktierende Milchdrüsen ein."
https://www.bmel.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Ernaehrung/Lebensmi...
But there's also this one:
"'Fettgewebereiches Schweinefleisch': Schweinefleisch mit einem Fettgewebeanteil, wie er bei nicht übermäßig fettem Bauchspeck zu erwarten ist."
Likewise, "Fleischspieße" may contain "Speck," but the second ingredient may just be dropped from the description.
Again, as a general category:
https://www.fleischtheke.info/fleischsorten/schweinefleisch
I'll just see what the maritime museum has to say, since Jeffrey wanted to email or call them.
As mentioned previously, I only have a vague idea of what the Scandinavian "spek" entails because the German word doesn't seem to be an exact match.
Not sure how to take this. One example:
"Speck ist ein unverzichtbarer Bestandteil klassischer Hausmannskost. Dabei ist das fettreiche Schweinefleisch erstaunlich international: italienischer Lardo, amerikanischer Bacon und Tiroler Speck sind gefragte Spezialitäten."
http://www.essen-und-trinken.de/speck
Do you want to tell me that I don't get "Speck" at a "Fleischtheke" or "bacon" won't be included in "EU-Import von Schweinefleisch"?
As I explained to Lingua, if it is used as a general category (Schweinefleisch, Rindfleisch, etc.), it may say "-fleisch," although it won't be meat in a more restrictive sense of the word (that's why I also said this concept may be confusing to non-native speakers).
And we're not talking about contemporary usage or mass production. I had several examples showing that it's either just about "cured/dried meat" (stashed away in caches along the route) or that it's tinned bacon, etc. brought from "home."
Cf.:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/arctic-explorers-un...
AFAIK, most of these expeditions had some kind of cache system.
But the text I am translating refers to Arctic explorers. I am certain we are talking about "preserved meat" brought along from home, or reference to blubber acquired on site.
we know that blubber is not pig, but they used the term as such. I assume the speck taken from home was NOT just bacon. I will contact the maritime museum to find out what they have in their collection.
what confused me a bit is that pork, bacon and Speck were used as if they were the same thing, in the original question. perhaps I just missed something.
I hope that wasn't too confusing :)
"Via Italian from Dutch spek, German Speck 'fat bacon, whale blubber' (in which sense it was formerly used in English): related to Old English spec."
The Scandinavian "spek" seems to have this old English sense of the word without any "pork strings" attached. But maybe the meaning is even broader. I can't tell you exactly.
Best
"speck, das wie fett, schmalz, schmer, fleisch collectivum ist, scheint von vornherein nur beziehung auf das schwein zu haben."
It's a book by the Brothers Grimm - you may know their Grimm's Fairy Tales. It's one of the (or the) most comprehensive dictionary on the German language (In English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Wörterbuch ).
The sentence above basically says that "Speck" as in "bacon" seems to refer almost exclusively to pork, not to any other meat. So the German dictionary doesn't differ much from the OED entry on bacon, which limits the meaning accordingly.
If you say "Speck" in German, it'd be automatically assumed that you're talking about pork bacon (there's no difference between pork and pig in German anyway), unless you add a qualifier (as Charles said). For example: Entenspeck (duck bacon)
I'd usually call it "Fett" (fat), but you cannot put both words together:
https://www.gourmet-web.de/Gesund-und-koestlich-Gaense-und-E...
That's for cooking or bread, similar to butter.
Not sure how our northern neighbors handle it, though.
One excerpt:
"Caches of prepared and packaged food were relatively safe from prowling wolves or polar bears. However, when fresh meat such as caribou or muskox carcasses were cached in winter, they were usually vulnerable to these predators: 'January 8th. Started out again and crossed the gulf to the other side were [sic] Storkersen had a meat cache. Dist 17 m weather good. On our arrival there, we found the cache robed [sic] by wolfs not a splinter of meat left.'"
http://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/hist/cae/foo90e....
And here's a "journal":
http://www.jstor.org/stable/207587?seq=1#page_scan_tab_conte...
If anyone's interested:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_obscura/2014/10/16/food_in_...
So back to "meat," i.e., it entirely depends on what kind of language Jeffrey is supposed to use. Sadly, can't agree with anyone because of the check mark for ProZ.com members.
Have a nice evening, all
I think it's just that back in those days, food for this kind of purpose wouldn't have made 'poncey' distinctions about niceties of preparation — all that was important was that it would keep long enough to still be edible after a long journey. A great deal of food that doesn't keep terribly well would traditionally have been preserved by some kind of curing and/or drying — even in the context of 'normal' everyday life —and it's probably not the sort of thing that would have been thought worth even mentioning.
http://ohiolovesbacon.com/5-types-of-bacon-not-made-from-pig...
Still find it curious that combined with "expedition," the search will only turn up "tinned bacon" or just "bacon," but otherwise, it's simply called "meat." Not quite sure what these explorers did differently than all the others.
"we will catch some more fish to help out the food supply and save our supply of cured meat."
https://books.google.de/books?id=59Qu7vlH8w4C&pg=PT110&lpg=P...
...or the Arctic Ordeal: The Journal of John Richardson
"When they had dried meat or pemmican (the differentiation was not always made)"
https://books.google.de/books?id=OQ6BM-VSDl0C&pg=PA193&lpg=P...
I can't seem to find anything besides dried/cured meat.
At least when it comes to German, your statement does not appear to be true. "Speck" as in Grimms Wörterbuch (that's from before the time of the polar expedition):
"speck, das wie fett, schmalz, schmer, fleisch collectivum ist, scheint von vornherein nur beziehung auf das schwein zu haben."
http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/?sigle=DWB&mode=Vernetzung&lem...
That leaves the Scandinavian version:
https://books.google.de/books?id=snUQAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA1116&dq=s...
"außen am Fleisch liegendes Fett"
"bacon" does not come from the Scandinavian word, but from central Europe:
http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=bacon&allowed_in_frame=...
Even the OED says it's from Old French.
Here's the Canadian's guide to elk meat:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/90/db/88/90db88550...
Does anything match?
Ever hear that one before?
I still feel that bacon is wrong. Bacon is pig in all my dictionaries.
Pemmican is not "flesk" or bacon either. Pemmican is pemmican.
Asker, that last info changes things and I wish you'd given it at the beginning. I've added a note. I thought of putting a new answer but it wouldn't match your inital question so will just add it on
Generally speaking, they mean cured fatty meat. I can't write "the cured or salted fatty parts of (animal)" to replace "spekk". It just sounds stupid. And "caribou bacon" feels even stupider. Thanks!
this is not incorrect, it is in use. however, there may be more specific terms out there, not sure.
and yes, it wasn't clear whether you were looking for an equivalent of pork or bacon (not quite the same thing)
Venison is the name of the meat, in general, for game.
I COULD say "goat bacon", "lamb bacon" or "venison bacon"
But surely that is not specific or correct?
the German word for pork is Schweinefleisch?