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se donnait la comédie
penderie-lift

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

raidi par une lourde bordure d’or

English translation:

stiffened by/with a heavy gold border

Added to glossary by Jennifer Levey
Aug 8, 2021 15:07
2 yrs ago
39 viewers *
French term

raidi par une lourde bordure d’or

French to English Art/Literary Textiles / Clothing / Fashion From An Art History Book
Contexte:

Il s’agissait d’un ample kimono de soie d’un rouge impérial, raidi par une lourde bordure d’or, une sorte de manteau de cour pour cérémonie du sacre.

A description of a bathrobe found in Hermann Goering's personal baggage at the end of WW II.

Merci Beaucoup,

Barbara
Proposed translations (English)
5 +5 stiffened with a heavy gold border
3 +1 with a heavy gold border
3 stiffened by a heavy gold edge trim (/trimming?)
Change log

Aug 9, 2021 18:01: Jennifer Levey Created KOG entry

Discussion

Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Oct 5, 2021:
You, as well, Domini.
Domini Lucas Oct 5, 2021:
@Barbara I thought you'd said it was a long-term one. You're most welcome. This kind of thing tickles the sewing part of my brain and I find it hard to let go without working it out! Always learning... If you ever come across a picture, fascinated to see it now. Though preferably on a mannequin! All strength to you for the rest of it. Take good care. :-)
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Oct 5, 2021:
Thank you so very much for your further input, Domini ! I'm still working on the project !
Domini Lucas Oct 5, 2021:
@ormiston I can see you made a very kind comment about me. I am very grateful, though I don't remember what I did to deserve it. Nevertheless, thank you for your kindness.
Domini Lucas Oct 5, 2021:
@re the more general discussion We discussed 'binding', banding and borders. It is indeed most likely to be called a band of fabric in a kimono setting, but it does serve a a visual border and, by laying it over the raw edges of fabric, it is being used to bind the edges (as
bias binding does on seams for those in the know who sew). However, band is most likely the correct term, but using "bordered by" helps give the visual effect. Does that make sense? We also discussed the fact that, without seeing the garment, there seems to be a possible disconnect between the fact that it is a kimono and that it is described as une sorte du manteau du cour. I had this picture in mind in particular https://fashionheritage.eu/efha-focus-manteau-de-cour-1810/, and the photo blurb does describe a border, plus the edge seems cylindrical and possibly internally stiffened with something. So it may well be that the specific kimono is long, has some kind of train, etc. Without a photo and further info that could shed light on any couture detials, she would however still recommend bordered by a heavy gold band as it covers that kind of detail as well, but doesn't specify any particular technique that might be wrong.
Domini Lucas Oct 5, 2021:
@Barbara bordered by a heavy gold band As regards a translation, if you haven't gone with what is already in the public domain, she recommends staying fairly general as, without a photograph, the 'wrong' translation could jar with historical costume folk if they ever look at it. So, though raidi does technically mean stiffened, she recommends steering away from using it because it could mean various different things e.g. from an attached band automatically adding stiffness to the edge of a garment to actual physical stiffener being added, which is a different couture process which has a different effect. So, in terms of a translation, she recommends something simpler and more generic like "bordered by a heavy gold band". This would in practice stiffen and weight the edge, but is less specific in terms of any wrong couture associations. I hope this makes sense by 'text speak'.
Domini Lucas Oct 5, 2021:
@Barbara Hi Barbara, long time... I promised to get back to you when I heard back from my sewing teacher on this. Just managed to have a lengthy discussion with her so putting it into the chat in case still of use to you and/or anyone else going forward with other work.
ormiston Aug 10, 2021:
Well done Domini The ideal solution!
Domini Lucas Aug 9, 2021:
@Barbara Ummm... That's very kind but I don't mind if you prefer to give them to someone else as the words were all here already. I found it on Google anyway. I wasn't really expecting points and enjoy talking about sewing and garments so was happy to research.
Domini Lucas Aug 9, 2021:
@Nikki Trims are often sewn onto the front side, but not always e.g. here's an example of a lace trim attached to the back and protruding below the hem https://historicalsewing.com/why-sewing-trim-to-the-back-of-... If you scroll down here https://sewguide.com/sewing-fabric-trims/ you'll also see a lace trim attaced to a hem. This link from MacCulloch and Wallis (higher end) even includes bias binding under "trimmings" https://www.macculloch-wallis.co.uk/c/715/trimmings. It's tricky to know what kind of trim/border/band was used without a photo of the original garment. On that point, I agree with you that it might therefore need to be as general as poss.
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 9, 2021:
I Think That's It! Please enter "weighed down with heavy gold trim" so I can award you the points, Domini!
Domini Lucas Aug 9, 2021:
@Barbara Btw, I just googled Goering kimono in case there was a photo, and, in case you need the consistency, there's a link that says he liked to recline in an enormous red silk kimono weighed down with heavy gold trim," as historian Robert Edsel, the catalog's publisher, writes in the preface". Easier to google Goering and kimono as I did and scroll down to Goering Hoards Nudes, Jingles Emeralds in Catalog of .... You'll see it quoted there. I couldn't get into the link once I clicked on it.
Domini Lucas Aug 9, 2021:
@Barbara I'm devoid of handheld French-English dictionaries these days (I always use them for double-checks when translating). In terms of the message I write to the teacher, I take it from everyone's comments I'm quoting this meaning for raidir: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/french-english/...
Domini Lucas Aug 9, 2021:
@Barbara Will do. I will be writing to her about something else today or tomorrow. I've just looked at the Techniques page of the Alison Smith book, where she shows how to construct hems with banding and it says the following: Banding is a term applied to a much wider bias strip. Some banding is visible by the same amount at the hem or edge on both sides of the work, while other bandings are surface-mounted to the edge of a fabric, such as for a decorative effect.... This sewers' forum may also hold a clue: the initial asker says she would like to "save the skirt by adding border or lace trim at the hem", some of the answers provided suggest using a contrast band. My gut feeling is therefore that if you can work banding/band of fabric in, it's generic enough even for non-sewers to understand. Or even sth like bordered by weighty/heavy gold banding (I haven't yet worked out what to do with raidi in that as you can see)
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 9, 2021:
Hello Domini! I won't be done with this project for another few months or so. That would be great if you could ask one of your sewing instructors about this issue. Thank you so much! I can't even sew on a button all that well . .. LOL
Domini Lucas Aug 9, 2021:
@Barbara When are you handing this in? I'll be in touch with one of my sewing teachers this week. She is very experienced in couture. I may be able to find out a bit more if you can wait a day or two for her to respond.
Domini Lucas Aug 9, 2021:
band (2) The Sewing Book/i by Alison Smith has a glossary at the back which includes the following:
banding Method of finishing a raw edge by applying a wide strip of fabric over it. The strip can also be used to add length to a garment.

I haven't found much to support border as a binding for a hem addition when googling (though I haven't had time to google widely). The photos here http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/k/kimono-making-kimono... show more traditional ones with a contrasting stiff band at the bottom. It also speaks of a neckband. I've only skimmed superficially but it didn't seem to meantion the band at the bottom. You might find some more info by googling kimono construction. I wonder if it was added partly to bind the edges and partly to add weight.

This (modern) link https://www.sewsimplehome.com/2015/04/adding-banded-hem-to-d... also talks of a banded hem. And this of a contrast band https://sewing.craftgossip.com/tutorial-add-a-contrast-hem/2... which would seem to fit with the V & A traditional kimonos as the bands are in contrasting colours.
Domini Lucas Aug 9, 2021:
band I've been wondering if it is talking about a band of fabric at the bottom, rather than a border. Unlike quilt borders, in dressmaking borders would usually be part of the fabric rather than an addition to bind and/or weight the edges. I've looked up two sewing books. One features a kimono pattern and does, indeed, talk of the neckband as being the strip of binding that goes all the way from bottom edge to bottom edge (round the neck on its way. However, it is a modern kimono pattern and does not have a band at the bottom.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Aug 9, 2021:
It has to be "stiffened", here's why A fabric can be stiffened in many ways. It is to be distinguished from reinforcement as you can reinforce a fabric without making it stiff. I've been sewing since childhood, for 50 years or so (yup, that's a long time). I have also translated sewing works and even worked in the field as a student. Again, a lining may stiffen, it may not; it may reinforce, it may not. The point is that the term "raidir" is very specific in sewing, as any seamstress will tell you. Raidir = to stiffen. The source indicates the fabric was stiffened "par" a gold border, yet is silent as to the very specific nature of the border. IMHO, in order to be accurate here, "stiffened by a gold border" is best.
Daryo Aug 9, 2021:
a "lining" would be on most (if not all) of the inner side of the kimono; "une bordure" would be visible (on the outside) and only along the edges.

@ormiston A heavy and slippery fabric could be "wrinkle free" on its own, especially a soft fabric like silk. This gold is probably there mainly for visual effect, or as status symbol.
ormiston Aug 8, 2021:
I imagine The heavy edging keeps the fabric 'taut' ie wrinkle free
David Hollywood Aug 8, 2021:
anybody any ideas on "raidi"?

Proposed translations

+5
2 hrs
Selected

stiffened with a heavy gold border

Literal translation works perfectly well in this context.
Note from asker:
Thanks. I found, in an immigration doc no less, a reference to collars that are stiffened by using stitching.
Peer comment(s):
agree Johannes Gleim : I would also say 'ample silk kimono of imperial red, stiffened by a heavy gold border,'
43 mins
agree Nicole Acher : Yes, and maybe « stiffened by » as Johannes suggests, rather than « stiffened with ».
1 hr
agree SafeTex
3 hrs
agree Samuël Buysschaert
15 hrs
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : I agree that "by" is more accurate than "with".
17 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
14 mins

with a heavy gold border

why not?

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Note added at 18 mins (2021-08-08 15:25:50 GMT)
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this refers to saris but same idea

Navy Blue Heavy Gold Border Soft Silk Bridal Wear Saree · Look stunning this traditional navy blue saree in soft silk material embellished with all over weaving ...

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Note added at 19 mins (2021-08-08 15:26:32 GMT)
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can imagine Göring in that lol

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Note added at 20 mins (2021-08-08 15:27:46 GMT)
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some boy lol

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Note added at 20 mins (2021-08-08 15:28:13 GMT)
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and totally despicable

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Note added at 24 mins (2021-08-08 15:31:55 GMT)
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the raidi bit could be rendered as "stiff"

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Note added at 31 mins (2021-08-08 15:39:04 GMT)
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but doesn't fit
Peer comment(s):
agree Katarina Peters : reinforced by instead of with
25 mins
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : It important to render the notion of "raidi". As an amateur seamstress, "raidir" is used to describe fabric or a result being sought. "Reinforced" seems close but sewers will know that a reinfrocement does not necessarily stiffen a fabric. ;-)
18 hrs
Something went wrong...
10 hrs

stiffened by a heavy gold edge trim (/trimming?)

a kimono stiffened by a heavy gold edge trim (/trimming?)

a kimono stiffened along the edges by a heavy gold trim (/trimming?)

https://fr.glosbe.com/fr/fr/border un vêtement

https://unlimitedfashion.co.uk/cut-make-trim-mean-fashion/

the way "trim" is used in catalogues seems to confirm this use of "trim"
Peer comment(s):
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Agree with "stiffened by". In sewing a "bordure" generally enveloppes the edge and is stitched to the upper and under sides of the edge. A trim/-ing is generally just on the upper side. if "bordure" is being used accurately, "border" is the most accurate.
8 hrs
OK thanks for the info.
Something went wrong...
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