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Project History (plus feedback!) features updated. Members are invited to use it!
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Konstantin Kisin
Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:41
Russian to English
+ ...
relevant entries shown Dec 10, 2005

Walter, as I explained in my previous post, that figure shows the number of *relevant* project history entries i.e. those that match the language pair and field which you searched for in the directory.

Tayyab Nazir
 
Walter Landesman
Walter Landesman  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 05:41
English to Spanish
+ ...
OK Dec 10, 2005

Konstantin Kisin wrote:

Walter, as I explained in my previous post, that figure shows the number of *relevant* project history entries i.e. those that match the language pair and field which you searched for in the directory.


Oh, dumb and dumber me! You are right again! Now I see.

Thanks again, K.

Walter


 
Luca Tutino
Luca Tutino  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
Sincerely I do not fell good with it Dec 11, 2005

You might remember how positive and enthusiastic I have always been about every single feature of this wonderful site. For the first time with PH I feel differently. Here is just a short summary of my worries.

I share Konstantin concerns (it is true we are not obliged to publish names but the competition will pressure us strongly).

I find the system very time expensive and partially ineffective (a double will always be necessary on my PC, organized along my personal ne
... See more
You might remember how positive and enthusiastic I have always been about every single feature of this wonderful site. For the first time with PH I feel differently. Here is just a short summary of my worries.

I share Konstantin concerns (it is true we are not obliged to publish names but the competition will pressure us strongly).

I find the system very time expensive and partially ineffective (a double will always be necessary on my PC, organized along my personal needs).

Please do not force us to select Specific Fields through a long unorganized list.

In our context the system of feedbacks and collaboration is prone to dishonest uses and very difficult to control (much more difficult than KudoZ, and that was just a game).

The balance of the site will be more inclined towards competition. (Public feedback is perfect for an auction site).

Last and (may-be) least: the fact that "Project History" is followed by the SM sign is not very reassuring: until today the dominant position of ProZ relied entirely on intelligence, quality and consensus.

--------
On the other side I trust greatly Henry and the people who made ProZ what it is now. I hope I will feel better about PH tomorrow.
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Mahad Abdisalan Yusuf
Tayyab Nazir
 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:41
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for your post, Luca Dec 11, 2005

Luca Tutino wrote:

I find the system very time expensive and partially ineffective (a double will always be necessary on my PC, organized along my personal needs).

It is a new feature--please help us make it more efficient.
Please do not force us to select Specific Fields through a long unorganized list.

The field list is optimized for the web (as opposed to a textbook). Rather that trying to make sense of the list in its entirely, when you get to the pull-down menu, just type the first letter of the field you have in mind. Keep tapping that letter until you see the field you want. This should work well in most cases.
In our context the system of feedbacks and collaboration is prone to dishonest uses and very difficult to control...

You are right that care must be taken, and as I said in my post to Konstantin, I anticipate that we will need to monitor things and arrive at solutions as necessary. I am confident that we can do it as a community. Remember, we are not trying to create the perfect system in one shot, we are trying to improve upon the status quo. The possibility of third-party cooperation gives the system more potential than, say, use of only CVs and profiles.
The balance of the site will be more inclined towards competition.

On the contrary, while competition will always be part of business, this tool gives top translators a way to differentiate themselves and justify their higher rates. The PH will make it easier for clients who really need experts, and can pay for them, to find them.
Last and (may-be) least: the fact that "Project History" is followed by the SM sign is not very reassuring: until today the dominant position of ProZ relied entirely on intelligence, quality and consensus.

Among our other trademarks and service marks are "Blue Board", "KudoZ" and "browniz". This is normal business practice and should be no cause for concern for members, and no reason for us on site staff to become lax.
On the other side I trust greatly Henry and the people who made ProZ what it is now. I hope I will feel better about PH tomorrow.

Thank you for posting. I appreciate your post - it says to me that you chose to participate in the process of forming a feedback system that works for you and others. As problems or ideas occur to you, please post them here. As a community I think we can turn this into something great for our top members.


Tayyab Nazir
 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:41
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
People should be directed the opposite way, Giovanni Dec 11, 2005

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Follow this thread too....
http://www.proz.com/topic/39771?start=0&float=

This is the newer of the threads. I will make a redirect post and lock the other one to clarify.


Tayyab Nazir
 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:41
Member (2004)
English to Italian
sorry if I cannot offer anything constructive... Dec 11, 2005

but it looks to me like the site is turning into e-Bay!

Giovanni


Tayyab Nazir
 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:41
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Can you be more specific? Dec 11, 2005

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
sorry if I cannot offer anything constructive...
but it looks to me like the site is turning into e-Bay!


You do an excellent job in your profile and CV of presenting a client list and a field-by-field description of your past projects and experience. (Ex: "marketing (probably my speciality, with hundreds of company profiles and press releases translated in my activity)") It is clear that you recognize the value of marketing oneself in this way... so to what exactly are you objecting?

If there is something specific about our implentation that you do not like, now would be the time to discuss it in concrete terms.


Tayyab Nazir
 
Luca Tutino
Luca Tutino  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
Special Fields: Alpha sorting is not effective + list is hudge & incomplete Dec 11, 2005

Just a quick not on the Special Fields list (really no time to elaborate now, sorry - will try later):

Henry wrote:
just type the first letter of the field you have in mind. Keep tapping that letter until you see the field you want. This should work well in most cases.


Alpha sorting is not effective in multilingual environment. Imagine beeing an Italian - the first letter that comes to mind is in Italian, and many word associations obvious in English are far fetched in Italian.

Also I find many fields are overdetailed and some general fields a lacking.


Tayyab Nazir
 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:41
Member (2004)
English to Italian
e-bay... Dec 11, 2005



If there is something specific about our implentation that you do not like, now would be the time to discuss it in concrete terms.



To me, the feedback aspect resembles the feedback-based system of e-Bay. A bit like a cattle market...

Apart from that, I have nothing to object. If people want to spend hours adding projects to their profile, it's fine by me. I just don't see the point of it. It's an information overload which, in my opinion, will put outsourcers off, also because there is no way of checking all the info provided. I'm well aware of the value of marketing, but, personally, I like to market myself in a more subtle, less intrusive or 'in-your-face' manner.

Also, the dealings I have with my clients are private and I wouldn't want to ask them to corroborate my claims. Maybe I'm a bit British in this, but I find the whole thing slightly vulgar.

Giovanni


Tayyab Nazir
 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:41
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
On the contrary, Giovanni Dec 11, 2005

[quote]Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

If people want to spend hours adding projects to their profile, it's fine by me.

It is obvious that you have put plenty of time into presenting a great profile. As you know, it is an indispensible part of being an independent professional.
I just don't see the point of it. It's an information overload which, in my opinion, will put outsourcers off, also because there is no way of checking all the info provided.

The system is not foolproof, to be sure, and no one should assume it is. However, the statement you have made here is less true of the project history functionality than it is of your profile and CV. At least PHs provide the possibility of third-party corroboration.
I'm well aware of the value of marketing, but, personally, I like to market myself in a more subtle, less intrusive or 'in-your-face' manner.

I find your marketing tone adequate and appropriate in its confidence. Nothing is stopping you from adopting a similar tone in your PH.
Also, the dealings I have with my clients are private and I wouldn't want to ask them to corroborate my claims.

You show a lengthy client list in your profile. What do you have against asking those you list for corroboration?


Tayyab Nazir
 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:41
Member (2004)
English to Italian
answers... Dec 11, 2005

Henry wrote:

It is obvious that you have put plenty of time into presenting a great profile. As you know, it is an indispensible part of being an independent professional.


I only had to do it once, I haven't got the time to keep adding projects to my profile. I believe my profile contains enough information for the outsourcers to get a fair idea of my professionality.



At least PHs provide the possibility of third-party corroboration.


You see, I don't think I need any corroboration. My qualifications and professional status speak for themselves.



I find your marketing tone adequate and appropriate in its confidence. Nothing is stopping you from adopting a similar tone in your PH.


Thanks for the compliments (I know you are a kind person... I've had the pleasure to meet you personally in Oxford...), but the PH doesn't really push any buttons for me and I won't be using it.


You show a lengthy client list in your profile. What do you have against asking those you list for corroboration?


I've been living in the UK for too long, obviously, or maybe it's just me, but I just find it embarrassing. And I don't like to sing my own praises. As I said before, I find it a bit vulgar....

Giovanni





[Edited at 2005-12-11 14:10]


Tayyab Nazir
 
Maria Nicholas (X)
Maria Nicholas (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 04:41
Greek to English
+ ...
I think it's a great idea Dec 11, 2005

I've already entered 15 (relatively small, but then again I only translate part-time) projects. I'm not particularly worried about competitors; rates aren't made public, and if I have already established a good relationship with the agency, I have nothing to worry about. I like the idea of potential clients being able to see a translator's overall record and past history with other clients -- I feel it can only add to his or her credibility.

Most of my work has come through Proz any
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I've already entered 15 (relatively small, but then again I only translate part-time) projects. I'm not particularly worried about competitors; rates aren't made public, and if I have already established a good relationship with the agency, I have nothing to worry about. I like the idea of potential clients being able to see a translator's overall record and past history with other clients -- I feel it can only add to his or her credibility.

Most of my work has come through Proz anyway, so this is just a natural next step to me. I'm sure the small snags and other considerations will be smoothed out along the way. Thanks to Henry and Proz for making this happen.

Maria
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Tayyab Nazir
 
Konstantin Kisin
Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:41
Russian to English
+ ...
No feedback = opportunity for deceit Dec 11, 2005

Giovanni, the current problem with Proz.com is that absolutely anyone could pretend to be an experienced translator with a degree from such and such university, 400 years experience in a particular field and work for clients like Microsoft, Coca-Cola etc etc.

I could say that my name is John Smith, I am from London, I am 60 years old, I have been a translator since I was 25, I have a degree in translation from a college of my choosing at Oxford University, I have translated for all
... See more
Giovanni, the current problem with Proz.com is that absolutely anyone could pretend to be an experienced translator with a degree from such and such university, 400 years experience in a particular field and work for clients like Microsoft, Coca-Cola etc etc.

I could say that my name is John Smith, I am from London, I am 60 years old, I have been a translator since I was 25, I have a degree in translation from a college of my choosing at Oxford University, I have translated for all the largest corporations in the world, I translate 1 million words a year, I specialise in all the fields of human knowledge that exist today. I could write a good CV, take a photo of a respectable looking 60 year old in the street, earn some kudoz points and start doing jobs for clients. No need for verification because as you put it "My qualifications and professional status speak for themselves."

What's to stop me from doing this? Well, just about nothing actually. Project history corroboration is a small step in the direction of dealing with this issue (and others) by making some sort of connection between what we all state as true on our profiles and what our clients (if we have any) say about us. As you saw, I was the first to suggest possible problems with this, including incentives to do undesirable things, exploitation opportunities and so on but I think the idea itself is a good one...just needs a little tweaking.
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Tayyab Nazir
 
Mihai Badea (X)
Mihai Badea (X)  Identity Verified
Luxembourg
English to Romanian
+ ...
Possibly unrealistic proposal Dec 11, 2005

I share Konstantin’s concern about the opportunity for deceit. After I’ve seen colleagues stealing content from the web to present it as their own articles for the Article Knowledgebase, I believe deceit is possible in the PH as well.

The only thing I can think of now is the possibility that a kind of board is established that would review the projects listed by the members. Or, if it is not possible to check all the projects, maybe at least a spot check would be feasible. I kn
... See more
I share Konstantin’s concern about the opportunity for deceit. After I’ve seen colleagues stealing content from the web to present it as their own articles for the Article Knowledgebase, I believe deceit is possible in the PH as well.

The only thing I can think of now is the possibility that a kind of board is established that would review the projects listed by the members. Or, if it is not possible to check all the projects, maybe at least a spot check would be feasible. I know that most of my colleagues are honest people; unfortunately, there are also some people who may try to abuse the PH function and I think we should find a way to prevent this to happen.
I am aware that my proposal is not the perfect solution and I hope that better proposals will follow.

Considering the potentially high risk of deceit, it may also be a good idea that only corroborated projects are shown for public view.


[Edited at 2005-12-11 17:40]
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Luca Tutino
Luca Tutino  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
PH can be more deceiving than a false CV Dec 11, 2005

Konstantin Kisin wrote:
Project history corroboration is a small step in the direction of dealing with this issue (and others) by making some sort of connection between what we all state as true on our profiles and what our clients (if we have any) say about us.


This is the core of PH - and I am afraid it is not a good idea. Please look at http://www.proz.com/pro/74269?show_mode=project_history&float=1&no_arrows=y (I do not know who's PH is this, and I am pretty sure this is a genuine PH of a excellent and enthusiast colleague: I just found it following a link in this discussion). There are 28 projects listed (into 8 languages and including some of 124, 623 or 1000 words). We know that they have been added in these days, but most of them are more than 1 year old, and some date back to 2001. One of these projects is corroborated: 7500 words from 2001.


Now, is this a proof? Is this really better than our usual CV claims? The only way to check them is to ask translators for proofs. A translator that does not promptly back up his CV statements will not find much work. On the other side it does not look so difficult to find a friend ready corroborate 7000 words made five years ago, without even checking if I really did it. Here we have a chance of building a kind of autocertification, which can be more deceiving than a false CV. This is my impression.

Also, considering I have an average of 200+ (large and small) projects per year, it appears that the best PH figures will go to those that have the time and the patience to put each single project on his PH. If this happens, should I just start to rebuild my projects from 1988?

[Edited at 2005-12-11 19:04]

[Edited at 2005-12-11 21:25]


 
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