Proposal: agencies must share budget/rate in job postings
Thread poster: Elena Volpato
Elena Volpato
Elena Volpato  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:18
English to Italian
+ ...
Mar 17, 2021

Hi everybody,
I have been reading a lot of posts in this thread that lament the low rates offered by agencies.

Since it has been established that setting a minimum rate for translator and agencies is not possible due to the many variables coming from the country of residence and language pairs, I will not go there.

I have another suggestion instead.
Right now, agencies that post any job can decide whether to share their budget for said project.
Can we
... See more
Hi everybody,
I have been reading a lot of posts in this thread that lament the low rates offered by agencies.

Since it has been established that setting a minimum rate for translator and agencies is not possible due to the many variables coming from the country of residence and language pairs, I will not go there.

I have another suggestion instead.
Right now, agencies that post any job can decide whether to share their budget for said project.
Can we make that compulsory, please?

Agencies can still ask whatever price they want, but at least members will be happier because they'll know immediately if the job is worth it or not. I have been here for one year and I had to refuse every project I bid on because the rates are below my minimum.

Thank you for your consideration,
Elena

P.s.: for people who will suggest me to specialize further and therefore add value to my work: I am on it! But, alas, it takes time and money.
For people who will suggest me not to work with agencies: I am on it as well, but this doesn't make my previous suggestion less valid.


[Edited at 2021-03-17 12:22 GMT]
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Adieu
Elena Feriani
 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 15:18
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Elena Mar 17, 2021

Elena Volpato wrote:
Right now, agencies that post any job can decide whether to share their budget for said project.
Can we make that compulsory, please?


No.

In fact, many years ago it used to be like that, but a very loud group of ProZ.com members felt that this actually put downward pressure on rates, so they demanded that ProZ.com no longer allow agencies to post budget information. They made so much noise and their threats of leaving ProZ.com were so realistic that ProZ.com investigated the issue, and then compromised a bit by making it optional, and by giving translators control over whether they want to see budget information when it is present.

As was predicted by the rest of us, the change did not have the intended effect: agencies still offer translators low rates, although they now do so in the second e-mail instead of the first one, and more translators end up wasting more time responding to agencies without knowing if those agencies will have any intention of accepting their rates.

[Edited at 2021-03-17 12:45 GMT]


Dan Lucas
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Philippe Etienne
 
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
Lots of things have happened Mar 17, 2021

That in reteospect, ought to be un-happened and undone ASAP.

Sadek_A
 
Elena Volpato
Elena Volpato  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:18
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I had no idea... Mar 17, 2021

Samuel Murray wrote:

In fact, many years ago it used to be like that, but a very loud group of ProZ.com members felt that this actually put downward pressure on rates, so they demanded that ProZ.com no longer allow agencies to post budget information. They made so much noise and their threats of leaving ProZ.com were so realistic that ProZ.com investigated the issue, and then compromised a bit by making it optional, and by giving translators control over whether they want to see budget information when it is present.

As was predicted by the rest of us, the change did not have the intended effect: agencies still offer translators low rates, although they now do so in the second e-mail instead of the first one, and more translators end up wasting more time responding to agencies without knowing if those agencies will have any intention of accepting their rates.

[Edited at 2021-03-17 12:45 GMT]


I feel a bit stupid now, but I had no idea!
If this is the case, then I take my suggestion back, even though I don't see why this put a pressure to lower prices. Did other agencies think "Oh, look how low Y and X are going; let's lower our rates too?".

What about allowing translators to discuss rates in the blue board comments about an agency?


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 15:18
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Elena Mar 17, 2021

Elena Volpato wrote:
Did other agencies think "Oh, look how low Y and X are going; let's lower our rates too?".


I think these opposing translators felt that it is unprofessional for clients to state rates. A professional translator decides his own rates (we all agree with that). It was feared that by allowing agencies to state rates, it would send a message to new translators that this is the way it is supposed to work. Also, if an agency states a rate, then fewer translators are going to quote much higher rates, but quite a few are going to quote lower rates, which would lead to translators gradually lowering their own rates to accommodate what they thought were market rates.


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Elena Volpato
Elena Volpato  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:18
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Oh well... it happened anyway. Mar 17, 2021

Samuel Murray wrote:

I think these opposing translators felt that it is unprofessional for clients to state rates. A professional translator decides his own rates (we all agree with that). It was feared that by allowing agencies to state rates, it would send a message to new translators that this is the way it is supposed to work. Also, if an agency states a rate, then fewer translators are going to quote much higher rates, but quite a few are going to quote lower rates, which would lead to translators gradually lowering their own rates to accommodate what they thought were market rates.


True, didn't thought of that! Apparently though, it was not fault of this feature; it was just meant to happen.

As for the fact that a translator chooses its own rates: yes, when working with private clients.
Agencies need to offer the same price to the costumer independently from who they employ for the translation, so I don't see it as unprofessional if they set the rate, as long as it is a good one.


 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 09:18
English to Russian
+ ...
99% Mar 17, 2021

Of all job offers here have clear indications pointing at poor rates without numbers:

1. Hidden budget in itself
2. Country of the outsourcer
3. Excessive wording about the requirements on paperwork, education, references, experience and overall brilliancy of the potential candidates, immediately followed by a request for your 75-95 per cent CAT discounts (just check the recent request for aviation manual translations into Russian), supported by whining/warning that they
... See more
Of all job offers here have clear indications pointing at poor rates without numbers:

1. Hidden budget in itself
2. Country of the outsourcer
3. Excessive wording about the requirements on paperwork, education, references, experience and overall brilliancy of the potential candidates, immediately followed by a request for your 75-95 per cent CAT discounts (just check the recent request for aviation manual translations into Russian), supported by whining/warning that they have a very low "competitive" budget.

Direct clients doing some cherry-picking once in a blue moon are just about the only hope left.
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Korana Lasić
Korana Lasić  Identity Verified
Member
Serbian to English
+ ...
Hey Elena Mar 17, 2021

Don't feel silly. You seem anything but silly.

Jessica Noyes
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
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Baran Keki
Baran Keki  Identity Verified
Türkiye
Local time: 17:18
Member
English to Turkish
Partly agreed Mar 17, 2021

IrinaN wrote:

Of all job offers here have clear indications pointing at poor rates without numbers:

1. Hidden budget in itself
2. Country of the outsourcer
3. Excessive wording about the requirements on paperwork, education, references, experience and overall brilliancy of the potential candidates, immediately followed by a request for your 75-95 per cent CAT discounts (just check the recent request for aviation manual translations into Russian), supported by whining/warning that they have a very low "competitive" budget.

Direct clients doing some cherry-picking once in a blue moon are just about the only hope left.


I agree that decent translation agencies that care about their reputation will want to thoroughly vet and check their translators, and will not want to take a chance on applicants offering the lowest possible rates on online job boards. This, I believe, must be especially the case where the major and most popular languages (apologies for bringing up the matter of language pairs) are concerned.
But, I think it makes sense for agencies to seek translators from job sites like this one if they get a document to be translated into Turkish or Georgian every 2 years or so.
As a matter of fact, I got one of my best clients from this site as recently as 3 years ago through bidding, by giving the highest rate I could think of at the time. It was a 200 or 300 word job, and there were not that many bidders (because of the volume I think) and, I guess, by pure luck (or perhaps due to my high rate I stood out among others) the agency owner took an interest in my proposal. Anyways, that job led to a number of other related jobs that earned me something like 15k in the space of 8 months. So it's not all that bad.
I reckon some agencies (apart from those hailing from certain countries) looking for translators of not-so-popular languages come to this job board with a fairly large budget in mind, but they get floored (and perhaps overwhelmed) by the proposals of those translators who (deliberately and conveniently) confuse the international standards with their country's living standards and go on to merrily undercut and drag each other down. Now is this the agency's or this site's fault?
I check some translators' (who give the impression that they are good at their job) profiles and see them proudly displaying their rates as 0.04 and 0.05 USD. Now would it be wrong to argue that these people are shooting themselves in the foot (and others' in the process) and lowering the budget expectation of the agency that comes here to post a job in a language pair they get a job once in a blue moon and thus was actually prepared to splash the cash before seeing the proposals?
Yes, I agree about the red flags and so on, but not every agency is looking for a cheap translator here. Looks like they get corrupted by the translators themselves.


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Proposal: agencies must share budget/rate in job postings







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