| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Copywriting vs translating Thread poster: Wendy Lewin
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Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 22:53
Chinese to English
| I agree; my market doesn't | Nov 4, 2013 |
Claudia Benetello wrote:
I may be biased because my bread and butter is marketing and advertising texts (both origination and transcreation), but if I specialise in such texts I don't need clients to tell me they don't want a faithful/straightforward translation -- I know it myself. Translations never have to sound like translations, of course, but when it comes to marketing and advertising texts it takes more effort to make the target copy sound natural and relevant to the target audience [compared to other types of texts where style doesn't play a role]. But since in this particular field a faithful/straightforward translation is worthless in most cases, I don't believe we should offer such a faithful translation by saying "the client never stated I could take liberties" etc. *We must* "take liberties" when it comes to such texts, and *we have to know* we must.
Claudia
[Edited at 2013-11-04 15:40 GMT]
Yeah, I would accept that. The problem is that I know for a fact that my market doesn't. Even in the more mature markets of Hong Kong and Taiwan, there is a strong bias towards literal translation, even for marketing texts. I would never accept a marketing assignment from a mainland Chinese client, because it's not worth the inevitable battles over why I didn't translate this particular rhetorical flourish literally...
If your clients know what they want when they come to you, that's great, and perhaps as a specialist, you attract those clients. The rest of us... struggle!
| | | | dropinka (X)
Italy
English to Italian
+ ...
| The only approach | Nov 4, 2013 |
Natalia Mackevich wrote:
We all understand that straightforward translation is not an option, but the final product can be made and submitted using two different approaches: one option is to translate the text taking into consideration culture, style, target audience etc. (translation), and the second option is to create a totally new text based on the target text (copywriting). These are quite different, but there could be hybrids if the client specifies their requirements.
The only possibile approach, in my opinion, is adapting (rather than translating) the source copy to the target language, culture and market. Of course you have to take into consideration culture, style, target audience etc., but you have to create a text that sounds natural in the target language and appropriate to the target market and culture. It has to sound as punchy and persuasive as the source, and that's the huge difference between translation and transcreation.
While there are (very few) cases in which a faithful, straightforward translation will do the trick, most times it just won't. Here are some famous examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haribo
Claudia
[Edited at 2013-11-04 16:30 GMT]
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 16:53
French to English
| transcreation | Nov 4, 2013 |
The trick, as I see it, is to include all the information in source text, but freely
| | | | dropinka (X)
Italy
English to Italian
+ ...
Texte Style wrote:
The trick, as I see it, is to include all the information in source text, but freely
Sometimes you add/omit information in your target text. It depends.
One notable example:
When Swiffer’s the one, consider it done
Italian version
La polvere non dura, perché Swiffer la cattura [literally meaning "Dust doesn’t linger, because Swiffer catches it"]
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| Aren't we getting off-topic here? | Nov 4, 2013 |
Has it been established that the text in question was a marketing/tourism text? I thought Sheila glanced at WML's profile and said "if it was a marketing text, then, etc etc." We don't know for sure if it was indeed a marketing/tourism text.
[Edited at 2013-11-04 22:01 GMT]
| | | | dropinka (X)
Italy
English to Italian
+ ...
| Definition of copywriting | Nov 5, 2013 |
TransAfrique wrote:
Has it been established that the text in question was a marketing/tourism text? I thought Sheila glanced at WML's profile and said "if it was a marketing text, then, etc etc." We don't know for sure if it was indeed a marketing/tourism text.
WML wrote "basically the customer wanted copywriting and not translating".
Because copywriting is "the act of writing copy (text) for the purpose of advertising or marketing a product, business, person, opinion or idea" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copywriting), I assumed it was an advertising or marketing text -- whether in the field of tourism, information technology, luxury etc. is irrelevant. But I assumed it was a promotional text, a text that has to persuade, or WML wouldn't have mentioned copywriting.
Claudia
[Edited at 2013-11-05 07:24 GMT]
| | | | | Claudia, I am curious ... | Nov 5, 2013 |
Are you saying that you create new catchphrases for companies for different countries, copywrite text they will be using for advertising purposes etc. for the same price as a basic translation?
Surely you should be charging much more for such services?
| | | | dropinka (X)
Italy
English to Italian
+ ...
| Different ways of charging for different things | Nov 5, 2013 |
KateKaminski wrote:
Are you saying that you create new catchphrases for companies for different countries, copywrite text they will be using for advertising purposes etc. for the same price as a basic translation?
Surely you should be charging much more for such services?
Transcreation may be anything from adapting a headline, a flyer, a TV commercial, a brochure etc. Clients expect to receive a text that sounds as if it had been created in the target language, for the target culture and the target market -- they don't want a "basic translation" because it would be completely useless.
Whilst "pure" translation is usually charged by the word, transcreation is usually charged by the project (i.e. a flat fee) rather than per word or per hour. If you only look at the number of words (which you shouldn't, because word count just doesn't mean a thing in transcreation), YES, transcreation is surely charged more. But if you consider how much time it takes you to carry out the assignment (i.e. your hourly profitability), you may find out that translating is more lucrative for you, especially if you have a high daily output in terms of number of translated words. Again, everyone is different and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another.
All this said, if a translator accepts to "translate" a promotional text, they should know right from the start they cannot provide a "basic translation". If they accept to "translate" a promotional text at their standard rate for "basic translation", they can only blame themselves and not the client for not telling them they didn't want a "basic translation". To me it's pretty obvious that for such texts a "basic translation" is useless.
Claudia
[Edited at 2013-11-05 11:00 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 15:53
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| You're quite right - we don't know for sure | Nov 5, 2013 |
TransAfrique wrote:
Has it been established that the text in question was a marketing/tourism text? I thought Sheila glanced at WML's profile and said "if it was a marketing text, then, etc etc." We don't know for sure if it was indeed a marketing/tourism text.
Absolutely correct - that's exactly what I did. It was just one possibility to consider, not a certainty. Hopefully we'll hear from WML, the original poster, very soon.
Apologies if my post was responsible for sending the thread off topic.
| | | | Jackie Doble
France
Local time: 16:53
Member (2011)
French to English
| Charging issues | Nov 5, 2013 |
Thanks Claudia for this insight!
I have been doing transcreation for a number of clients through an agency, and always get the basic word rate. As it takes me a great deal longer (for example, in the worst case scenario, a few lines can take several hours to get the right feel) I have been feeling somewhat hard done by, but didn't know that it could be charged otherwise. It looks like I will have to educate the agency in question.
Nevertheless, I love doing it! A hund... See more Thanks Claudia for this insight!
I have been doing transcreation for a number of clients through an agency, and always get the basic word rate. As it takes me a great deal longer (for example, in the worst case scenario, a few lines can take several hours to get the right feel) I have been feeling somewhat hard done by, but didn't know that it could be charged otherwise. It looks like I will have to educate the agency in question.
Nevertheless, I love doing it! A hundred times more doing than a basic translation. It's a real challenge and I love getting the rapturous client feedback! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | But what about input? | Nov 5, 2013 |
I would basically agree with Claudia and Sheila on the fact that any translation of a marketing, tourism or similar requires a different approach from, let's say, a legal text or a technical manual. So when I get a marketing or PR text, I would of course translate it a lot more freely than e.g. an employment contract.
But when the client expects transcreation, or even copywriting, they have to provide information on the target audience, on the impression they want to create with th... See more I would basically agree with Claudia and Sheila on the fact that any translation of a marketing, tourism or similar requires a different approach from, let's say, a legal text or a technical manual. So when I get a marketing or PR text, I would of course translate it a lot more freely than e.g. an employment contract.
But when the client expects transcreation, or even copywriting, they have to provide information on the target audience, on the impression they want to create with this text, about the purpose they hope to fulfill with the target text etc. Otherwise, the translator just does not have the background knowledge to provide transcreation and copywriting services. It is not our job to guess freely or to read the minds of the clients.
When I am dealing with a direct client I do not expect them to be aware of this, so when someone asks me to "translate" a marketing text, I ask them about these things, determine whether that what they want is a translation, transcreation or a copywriting job, and then provide a quote for the requested services with appropriate pricing. I cannot just assume that any given direct client is aware of these differences and nuances.
However, this is not the case here. The job came from an agency, and in my experience, those sound almost always something like "Translate this 2.000 word marketing text by tomorrow afternoon at your usual word price of X per source word (or target line or whatever)", with no additional instructions whatsoever. This is clearly a request for a translation, even if worded more freely as it is a marketing text, because any professional must be aware that you cannot provide decent transcreation or copywriting services in this short a time and with this little information, even if you were willing to do it for the same price that you would charge for just translating the text.
And given the fact that agencies are (or at least claim to be) professional service providers, you can expect them to be aware of this fact, to be able to tell the difference between translating, transcreating and copywriting, and to know what they asked you to do. It is clearly the agency's responsibility to find out what their client wants and to communicate this to the translator. They also are responsible for checking the product before passing it on to their own client.
If they failed to do so, they have provided a very bad service to their client, but that is their problem. The translator can still have delivered exactly what was ordered with no defects at all. When an agency asks for a translation, a translation is what they get. Otherwise they should have said so much, much earlier. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Wendy Lewin
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:53
German to English
TOPIC STARTER
the text was a technical text but with a marketing slant - precise descriptions of equipment accompanied by descriptions of advantages etc. but aimed at the technicians installing the equipment, not the end customer of the equipment, so I put technical accuracy and detail first. It was not the first piece of work I had done for this client - and previously had no problems. The difficulty in these cases is to decide what is important to emphasise and what can be changed - I had tried to clarify a... See more the text was a technical text but with a marketing slant - precise descriptions of equipment accompanied by descriptions of advantages etc. but aimed at the technicians installing the equipment, not the end customer of the equipment, so I put technical accuracy and detail first. It was not the first piece of work I had done for this client - and previously had no problems. The difficulty in these cases is to decide what is important to emphasise and what can be changed - I had tried to clarify any special requests for specific terms and had acted on the agency's response to find the end client was not happy with some of them.
In future if I will be more specific about the service I am providing and the service required, but in this case I feel the text I provided was suitable. Absolutely nothing to do with tourism! ▲ Collapse
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 16:53
French to English
| Nicole are you reading us? | Nov 5, 2013 |
WML wrote: the text was a technical text but with a marketing slant - precise descriptions of equipment accompanied by descriptions of advantages etc. but aimed at the technicians installing the equipment, not the end customer of the equipment, so I put technical accuracy and detail first. It was not the first piece of work I had done for this client - and previously had no problems. The difficulty in these cases is to decide what is important to emphasise and what can be changed - I had tried to clarify any special requests for specific terms and had acted on the agency's response to find the end client was not happy with some of them. In future if I will be more specific about the service I am providing and the service required, but in this case I feel the text I provided was suitable. Absolutely nothing to do with tourism!
Thanks for getting back to us WML!
So it did have a marketing slant.
(I mentioned tourism since it's very typical of marketing texts and a field everyone is familiar with, but basically the same applies to any marketing texts. Apologies for my part in the drift off-topic!!)
When the product being marketed is technical then of course it's very tricky. You need talent at both technical stuff and marketing. You do have to make sure that you're not making false claims (the author had the legal and technical departments checking his work, but these specialists don't necessarily speak the target language well enough to check yours). You also need livelier prose than the dry stuff of manuals and specifications. Sometimes the firm will give a "basic" translation to an advertising firm working in the target language, but you do need to check on this with the agency.
(If Nicole were to read this thread I'd be interested to hear what she says, because this is precisely the sort of stuff she does, from what I have understood)
And if I understand you correctly, the agency gave you some terminology and it turned out it was wrong? That sounds like a lazy PM who'd rather look up a work in a dictionary and give you the first translation they find rather than consult with the client. So they have been sloppy on several counts. I don't think they deserve any kind of compensation from you.
| | | | dropinka (X)
Italy
English to Italian
+ ...
| I do receive a brief. And if I don't, I ask questions | Nov 5, 2013 |
Britta Niggenaber wrote:
But when the client expects transcreation, or even copywriting, they have to provide information on the target audience, on the impression they want to create with this text, about the purpose they hope to fulfill with the target text etc. Otherwise, the translator just does not have the background knowledge to provide transcreation and copywriting services. It is not our job to guess freely or to read the minds of the clients.
As a matter of fact they do send me a brief, and if they don't I ask them questions about the tone of voice, the target audience etc.
When I am dealing with a direct client I do not expect them to be aware of this, so when someone asks me to "translate" a marketing text, I ask them about these things, determine whether that what they want is a translation, transcreation or a copywriting job, and then provide a quote for the requested services with appropriate pricing. I cannot just assume that any given direct client is aware of these differences and nuances.
I take it as a fact that all clients want to receive a target-language copy that needs very little rework on their part. For this reason, I always assume they want transcreation and not plain translation when it comes to marketing and advertising texts. It's not a question of labelling things in certain way, though -- as I said before, for me the only way to translate a brochure, a TV commercial, a print ad etc. is to actually adapt rather than translate it, whether or not the client explicitly says "I want it transcreated" instead of "I want it translated".
However, this is not the case here. The job came from an agency, and in my experience, those sound almost always something like "Translate this 2.000 word marketing text by tomorrow afternoon at your usual word price of X per source word (or target line or whatever)", with no additional instructions whatsoever. This is clearly a request for a translation, even if worded more freely as it is a marketing text, because any professional must be aware that you cannot provide decent transcreation or copywriting services in this short a time and with this little information, even if you were willing to do it for the same price that you would charge for just translating the text.
And given the fact that agencies are (or at least claim to be) professional service providers, you can expect them to be aware of this fact, to be able to tell the difference between translating, transcreating and copywriting, and to know what they asked you to do. It is clearly the agency's responsibility to find out what their client wants and to communicate this to the translator. They also are responsible for checking the product before passing it on to their own client.
If they failed to do so, they have provided a very bad service to their client, but that is their problem. The translator can still have delivered exactly what was ordered with no defects at all. When an agency asks for a translation, a translation is what they get. Otherwise they should have said so much, much earlier.
As I said before, in my opinion a translator cannot but transcreate marketing and advertising texts, or they'll be the ones providing a very bad service to their clients. If translators charge transcreation the way they charge translation, they can only blame themselves...
For what it's worth,
Claudia
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Please remember, this is a public forum, and it is open for potential clients, too. So even if you do not agree with what your colleages think, let's say, if someone thinks marketing translation, transcreating and copywriting are, even though similar, not quite the same thing and you think they are, try not to make them look like they are idiots who are not qualified to tie their own bootlaces, let alone translate a marketing text. Why do you think the term "transcreation" as opposed to "marketi... See more Please remember, this is a public forum, and it is open for potential clients, too. So even if you do not agree with what your colleages think, let's say, if someone thinks marketing translation, transcreating and copywriting are, even though similar, not quite the same thing and you think they are, try not to make them look like they are idiots who are not qualified to tie their own bootlaces, let alone translate a marketing text. Why do you think the term "transcreation" as opposed to "marketing translation" needed to be coined in the first place? To make discussion about it more colorful? Probably not. It is the missing link between a (marketing) translation, that requires of course an approach specific to marketing texts and cannot be overly literal, but is still basically the same text as the source text, just in a differnt language, and true copywriting, which would be a completely new text based on the information contained in the source.
Also, if your clients alway send you a brief, if you have agency clients who have negotiated different prices for marketing translation/transcreation/copywriting with you, if your agency clients alway pass your questions on to the client and give you sensible and comprehensible answers to your questions and if you in fact never had a client who was dissatisfied because you translated a marketing text too literal or too freely for their liking, or used the wrong "wording" or did something else they would have done differently, great. You are really a lucky girl!
But quite frequently a translator, no matter how good and how qualified, does just get a request to translate a marketing text, without further info and instructions, queries are not passed on or the answers do not help one bit, and then they just have to do the best they can. An agency must be aware of that. And in case the agency fails to find out what their clients want, if they do not clarify questions or even answer them themselves, because they are afraid they will look stupid if they bother the client with questions from the translator (and this happens quite often, believe me, I know), then it is the agency who is at fault here, not the translator. The translator can damn well assume that a professional agency knows what to expect under the given circumstances. Also, the agency is responsible to check the translation and make sure it is what their client ordered, before they pass it on to them, just like any other vendor has to make sure the product they send out to their customers is what was ordered. If they don't, it is not the translator who did a bad job, and I really cannot think why you are implying they did. I mean, what happened to WML could happen to all of us, including you.
I would really appreciate if all of my fellow translators would be a little bit more careful about how they make their colleagues look, because when we are always implying that if the (end-) client is always right and it is always the fault of the bad, lazy or just plain stupid translator if they aren't, we are weakening or position against the agencies. Admittedly, many of them are, in fact, just pushing files around and some even do not seem to comprehend what they are doing, but this should not be the case. They have responsibilities as well and we cannot always excuse them from not doing their jobs properly, because it is us translators who will have to pay the price in the long run, unless we pull ourselves together and start showing a little bit of solidarity. ▲ Collapse
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