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Agency invoicing - The horrors of web-based management systems
Thread poster: Michael Bernhardt
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:15
Member (2004)
English to Italian
yes, but... Jul 6, 2017

Jenny Forbes wrote:

I can't imagine telling my motor mechanic or builder than I won't accept his invoice unless he follows my invoicing procedures or until I have decided to enter it in my system.


You don't deal with 150 or more motor mechanics and hundreds of invoices every months, do you?

Some systems are easy, some others aren't... I refuse to work with agencies who force cumbersome invoicing systems on me... the choice is ours...

[Edited at 2017-07-06 12:30 GMT]


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:15
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
It is indeed our choice, Giovanni ... Jul 6, 2017

... and I've chosen not to work for agencies which impose poorly designed and user-hostile online invoicing systems.
And yes, Kay Viktor, it's fine if the online invoicing system is simple, straightforward, efficient and fair. Under discussion here, I think, are those which are anything but simple, straightforward, efficient and fair.


 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 02:15
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
Send a stroppy mail to the right person and rate them on the Blue Board Jul 6, 2017

I try not to take it out on the PMs, who are often sympathetic and helpful.

However, I do send a mail to someone higher up in the system. I describe the process from my fumble-fingered end and comment on how long it takes to register, log in, change my password, fiddle about, jump through all their hoops and then make out my own invoice for tax purposes...

I add that a couple of my clients do actually have streamlined systems that produce invoices acceptable to the Dani
... See more
I try not to take it out on the PMs, who are often sympathetic and helpful.

However, I do send a mail to someone higher up in the system. I describe the process from my fumble-fingered end and comment on how long it takes to register, log in, change my password, fiddle about, jump through all their hoops and then make out my own invoice for tax purposes...

I add that a couple of my clients do actually have streamlined systems that produce invoices acceptable to the Danish tax authorities, so it can be done.
One of these clients uses Plunet, and it is a dream, it actually saves me time when I have done several jobs for them in a month. Their only limitation is that I can't put more than 15 jobs on one invoice. (But if that's your problem, you can't complain too loudly!)

The public system Gitte mentions involves several steps, but if you take a deep breath and work through it calmly, it is not half as bad as some I have seen.

Other clients can set Plunet up to be a total Pain in the B***, and after threatening to charge several of them, I have simply stopped working for them.

Admittedly, that is a luxury some people can't afford, but I let these clients know there is a problem before I push off!

I also add a comment on the Blue Board and dent their row of 5-ratings. Perhaps more people should try that, because agencies take it seriously.
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Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:15
English to German
I don't mind Jul 6, 2017

I have a couple of clients with online systems and they work fine for me, they save me time, really.

I suppose as long as they design those things with translators in mind...


 
Erik Freitag
Erik Freitag  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:15
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
I keep wondering Jul 6, 2017

I am really as astonished as I was in the thread last year that there are voices in favour of letting their clients take care of the invoicing process. I suspect that some kind of employee mindset ("I do nothing but translate, bookkeeping etc. is none of my business") may be part of the reason.

I wonder how those in favour of online portals do their bookkeeping - don't they need to enter all the job and invoice data for their own records anyway?

Also, I keep hearing peo
... See more
I am really as astonished as I was in the thread last year that there are voices in favour of letting their clients take care of the invoicing process. I suspect that some kind of employee mindset ("I do nothing but translate, bookkeeping etc. is none of my business") may be part of the reason.

I wonder how those in favour of online portals do their bookkeeping - don't they need to enter all the job and invoice data for their own records anyway?

Also, I keep hearing people say that online portals save them time. This can only be due to inefficient procedures on the translator's side. Every time I accept a job, I enter it into my invoicing software. The fields I enter are the client's PO no. (if any), the due date, a short description (one or two words), and the price. From then on, issuing an invoice (no matter how many jobs it contains) is exactly two mouse clicks away. How much simpler can it get? I mean, do professional translators actually still "write" invoices today?

I honestly don't get it.


[Edited at 2017-07-06 14:31 GMT]
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Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Germany
Local time: 02:15
English to German
In memoriam
Pro forma invoices Jul 6, 2017

Erik Freitag wrote:

So you don't issue invoices at all? God forbid you ever get a tax audit! Prepare for the worst.


I do issue invoices for most of my clients, of course, because they require them. And since I work for agencies only, I follow the invoicing procedures of the respective agency, some of them tedious, some of them easy. That's the business.

But as I said, some of the agencies in Asia are not interested in invoices, they have a very streamlined payment process, and I appreciate that. For tax reasons, I do create a minimal invoice there too (just stating the amount), but this invoice is only for my own files and for the German Finanzamt (tax authority), and I never send it anywhere.

My bookkeeping is actually very simple and I believe that if I ever get a tax audit, it will not take more than half an hour. Well, hopefully


 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:15
French to English
Invoicing Jul 6, 2017

When issuing an invoice, each individual professional has to satisfy certain criteria that can be required for legal and/or for taxation purposes. I do not invoice VAT, but my invoices have to indicate all the usual stuff you would expect, (including the legal provisions regarding my not being liable for VAT), but a fair bit of other stuff too, including the conditions for the application of and the rate of interest for late payment. Additional rules are required if you adhere to a professional ... See more
When issuing an invoice, each individual professional has to satisfy certain criteria that can be required for legal and/or for taxation purposes. I do not invoice VAT, but my invoices have to indicate all the usual stuff you would expect, (including the legal provisions regarding my not being liable for VAT), but a fair bit of other stuff too, including the conditions for the application of and the rate of interest for late payment. Additional rules are required if you adhere to a professional association or to a particular type of accounting organisation. Those criteria cannot necessarily be met when the client imposes his/her restrictions.

In such cases, I too have drawn up an invoice to satisfy those criteria and kept it along with the online portal thingy. However, as my own invoice is not actually sent to the client in that case, then I suppose I am not in fact complying with the rules and regs I am supposed to meet. I dropped them. There is already a fiar bit of extra admin when you work with agencies without adding this sort of stuff. No thanks.


[Edited at 2017-07-06 20:02 GMT]
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philgoddard
philgoddard
United States
German to English
+ ...
The worst offender: SDL WorldServer Jul 6, 2017

One of my clients uses this. How do I hate it? Let me count the ways.

1. Each month, it bombards me with up to FIFTY offers of nonexistent jobs. The client has told me to ignore these unless they come with a message from a real project manager. I've threatened to label them all as spam.

2. The customer often forgets to issue a purchase order after the job is finished, and I can't bill them until they do.

3. It forces me to use translation memory, even thoug
... See more
One of my clients uses this. How do I hate it? Let me count the ways.

1. Each month, it bombards me with up to FIFTY offers of nonexistent jobs. The client has told me to ignore these unless they come with a message from a real project manager. I've threatened to label them all as spam.

2. The customer often forgets to issue a purchase order after the job is finished, and I can't bill them until they do.

3. It forces me to use translation memory, even though there are never any repetitions in my translations for this customer. Since it doesn't accept dictation, this slows me down.

4. For some reason, I have to "e-sign" their purchase orders before I can get paid.

5. I have to remember several different usernames and passwords, depending on the type of job.

6. I can't issue my own invoices.

7. There are probably more problems, but I can't think of them right now.

Would anyone like to join my support group for translators driven to the end of their rope by WorldServer?







[Edited at 2017-07-06 21:32 GMT]
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Jan Truper
Jan Truper  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:15
Member (2016)
English to German
You might be on to something Jul 7, 2017

Erik Freitag wrote:

I wonder how those in favour of online portals do their bookkeeping - don't they need to enter all the job and invoice data for their own records anyway?

Also, I keep hearing people say that online portals save them time. This can only be due to inefficient procedures on the translator's side. Every time I accept a job, I enter it into my invoicing software.


While I am generally on the forefront of technical aspects of freelance translating, I have never even considered invoicing software.
I am currently using a Google spreadsheet to keep track of projects, which offers most elements that I require (especially color coding and online sharing with my wife, who is not only the love of my life but also my minister of finance).
Some sort of "issue invoice for selected items" button (in English/ in German/ with VAT/ without VAT) would be nice, though.
I will look into that...


 
Philippe Etienne
Philippe Etienne  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 02:15
Member
English to French
Not for everybody Jul 7, 2017

It's precisely because of the shortcomings, time-wasting-ness, user-unfriendliness of those web-based customer systems that I no longer have any customers requiring me to use them for anything beyond retrieving and uploading files.
Nobody fills in my own management system for me and time is the only resource I sell.

Off-topic on experience about having one's own job management program:

Jan Truper wrote:
...I will look into that...

Like most translators, I used to manage my workload using a spreadsheet with tabs, formulas, conditional formatting, references... a constant work-in-progress table. At that time, I used to handle about 400 jobs/year and 5-10 invoices a month. Invoicing runs were a very manual chore and required entering several times the same data, with consistency controls that were at best feeble (like total amount in invoices=total amount in jobs). It required time and a lot of faith and thoroughness.
My home-made system became too cumbersome and very error-prone, so instead of keeping building up on dodgy "automation", I looked for alternatives to my Excel spreadsheet, made by professionals.
In 2005, I turned to TO3000 (http://www.to3000.com/ ), likely after reading about it here. For one month, I maintained both my own Excel sheet and the TO3000 full version free trial before making a decision. As a result, TO3000 joined the select group of my core programs, next to CAT tools, Office, Chrome, Copernic and Dragon.

BUT
- I've always had a handful of loyal customers, so I don't need to enter a new customer record every day (not even every month). Because this is where proper management systems get annoying: basic customer details (address, contact, VAT...) need to be entered the same way, whether for a one-off whose data you will never need again or a long-standing one.
- It is easier to "adapt" to how the program is thought-through than the opposite. I came to change the folder structure I was used to to match the program's way of working, but in the end it was a sound benefit.
- You need to allow some time to get started with the program and enter all the details.

Now, if you find your current setup satisfactory (accuracy, reliability, ease of use...), learning to use a new program for the sake of it has little point. Because like every major change, you need some personal investment to read, try and assess how new stuff can help you. The potential gain has to outweigh this initial burden.

Some features I enjoy most in TO3000 v11 (besides the obvious):
Desktop program
User-defined lists of tax percentage and name/discount grids/payment terms/invoice and quote .rtf templates to choose from
Invoicing runs are a breeze, one click includes all completed jobs in a customer invoice.
Opening of working files directly from the TO3000 job list, without any drill-down in Explorer.
Rates/FTP details and login/currency/payment deadlines stored at customer level
User-defined work units and services (s/word, hour, QA, edit...)
Weighted wordcounts: analysis in the CAT tool, export to .csv old Trados style, import and selection of the right discount grid, and direct entry of the weighted wordcount in job sheet.
Colour-coded lists for jobs/invoices: today/late/outstanding/not completed/planned, etc.
Plain free text entry at job/customer/invoice... levels
Outstanding experience with support when relocating to another country
Easy statistics with date filtering

I'm seeing whether I will upgrade to the new 3D version (v15) with added features.

If you're a Plus subscriber, BaccS (http://www.ibaccs.com/Home/Downloads ) is available for free, and reviews are mostly positive. Michael has also compiled an exhaustive list of alternatives somewhere in the forums here.


Philippe


 
Michael Bernhardt
Michael Bernhardt
Germany
Local time: 02:15
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Wow! Jul 7, 2017

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and opinions! I suddenly don't feel so bad after reading the nightmares some of you have experienced. Still, it's really good to see I'm not the only one who has a problem with this kind of Do-our-admin-work-for-us scheme.

But I now wonder how the agencies make those decisions. After all, we are the basis of their business. You'd think they'd involve their linguists in their decisionmaking, do polls beforehand etc.
Instead, they ju
... See more
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and opinions! I suddenly don't feel so bad after reading the nightmares some of you have experienced. Still, it's really good to see I'm not the only one who has a problem with this kind of Do-our-admin-work-for-us scheme.

But I now wonder how the agencies make those decisions. After all, we are the basis of their business. You'd think they'd involve their linguists in their decisionmaking, do polls beforehand etc.
Instead, they just create facts, take it our leave it... I imagine there's alot of IT marketing going on, and lots of managers influenced by the promises of the IT firms, so it seems they just jump on without considering all the consequences. In the end, the best translators are probably the first to leave because they don't depend on one or even several clients...
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Agency invoicing - The horrors of web-based management systems







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